Skyscript Astrology Forum

Book IX.9 of Abu Ma'shar's On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities (Benjamin Dykes translator) describes a list of things to be considered when examining a year; beginning with eight special indicators:

1. The Lord of the Year (LOY)
2. The distributor of the radix Ascendant
3. The distributor of the longevity releaser
4. The partners of (2) and (3)
5. The lord of the fardār
6. The lord of the orb
7. The planet the solar return Moon first applies to or, if she is void, the lord of her sign
8. The first lord of the solar return Ascendant

We are told that if all these 8 indicators resolve into one planet then it alone "would be governor of the indication for the condition of the year" but if instead one planet simply had more testimonies than the others, its indications would take precedence with the other planets acting in partnership. If it turns out the planet has also, in the Solar Return, returned to its original radix position, its strength is increased.

Once the indicator(s) have been identified we need to examine the condition of each, in turn, with respect to the natives (1) soul, (2) body, and (3) rank, power, and class. The conditions are determined by the three ways we can measure planetary position:

1. The planet's condition "in its essence" (its position relative to the Sun)
2. The planet's condition with respect to its zodiac position
3. The planet's condition with respect to its position in the circle

We are then advised to "look into the condition of each planet according to the combinations" already described in "Book after Book, Chapter after Chapter", earlier in the text and which largely focus on the position the planets hold with respect to their own domiciles and the ascendants of each of three charts: root (radix), profected, and solar return; we are told that "their positions in the houses [need] to be examined because sometimes that planet, in its transit and position in the houses of the circle in the root and the revolution, will indicate something similar to what other planets indicate by nature." He gives two example for how this "mixing" can be approached:

Example One

Say a planet in the radix chart was found to be in the 2nd house but in the Solar Return it was

1. in the 5th from the radix Ascendant
2. in the 10th from the sign of the profection
3. in the 9th from the Solar Return ascendant

If the planet is a "fortune or made fortunate" then assets (2nd) house "will go from him to the children [5th] and the Sultan [10th], and he will spend assets for reasons of travel, and travelers, and invisible things, and men of godliness [9th] and he will delight [fortune] in that." (p.668)

If the planet was an "infortune or made unfortunate, it indicates that the children [5th] will steal money from him, and he will spend money because of the Sultan [10th], travel, and travelers [9th], and he will be distressed [infortune] by that." (p.669)

Example Two

If the planet was in the 9th in the radix but in the Solar Return it was in

1. the 5th from the radix Ascendant
2. the 10th from the sign of the profection
3. the 2nd from the Solar Return ascendant

And it was a fortune (or made fortunate) then "it indicates the child [5th] will travel, and will gain authority or benefits in his travel [9th], and assets or gifts [2nd] will pass to the owner of the revolution from his children because of the travel, or from an absent person, [9th] and he and his children will delight [fortune] in that. But if the planet was an infortune or made unfortunate, it indicates distress and something detestable in relation to these." (p.669)

There are a number of things interesting about his summary, for example, he tells us in Book V1.2 that the planets, houses, 12ths, and lots are to be directed by one degree , yet here and elsewhere he gives no clear examples for anything other than directing the radix Ascendant through the bounds by the mean ascension degrees of the signs in order to find the distributor (bound lord of the directed Asc) and its partner (the planet whose last body or aspect ray the directed Asc met with). He also spends a good deal of time analyzing the relation between the distributor , its partner and the way the roles transition from one planet to another.

The distributor (the planet ruling the bounds the directed Asc is passing through) appears to set the tone for the period while the partner (the planet whose aspect the Asc last moved through) is referred to as the manager of the times. The indications from the distributor/partner are said to manifest when the planets are strong in the year (the profection and or solar return of the year being examined).

What is puzzling is the position of the Lord of the Year (the ruler of the profected Asc) being given precedence over the distribution pair; the text gives the distinct impression its indications are weaker than the distributor/partner pairing unless the three agree in some manner; unless that is the point, perhaps the first thing to check is the LoY to see if it agrees with the distribution pair as that would indicate the current year is one where they will be most apt to show their effects. He does dedicate Book II to a study of the Lord of the Year which comes before Book III On Directions. And the turned (profected) chart does, indeed, appear to act as the middle ground between directions and revolutions, setting the stage for the year.

As to the distribution of the longevity releaser (Hyleg), Ma'shar does cover it, grudgingly, in Book IX.8 "On the cutters, which of them is true, friendly, superior, loved for wisdom". He warns his students not to get too wrapped out in trying to discern the time of death in the charts.

The Fardārs of the planets are covered in Book IV but rarely mentioned elsewhere. And the lord of the orb is covered in Book VI.1 with little mentioned about it elsewhere; the technique is essentially a profection using the planetary hour rulers at birth, one to each year, in place of counting (profecting) by sign from the ascending sign. He does something similar with the novenaria (9ths) but fails to mention them at all in this final summary.

The Solar Return and the Moon in the solar return are examined primarily to discover how the active planets in the radix and profection are doing in the present. While Ma'shar often stresses that the indications in the Solar Return cannot erase the indications of the radix he also stresses that the radix indications are only likely to manifest when the radix indications are in agreement with the profected and solar return indications. And he argues, quite eloquently, in Book I for why particular attention must be paid to each planets condition in the relevant year's solar return saying that if something of the future is indicated in the radix then we certainly need to know the planet's condition at that future time if we are to know "the essence of its indication". And that it is through the "conditions in the revolutions of years relative to their condition in the root, is known their indication in strength or weakness, or abundance and scarcity" which may not always be clear in the radix alone. He also points out that "one does not draw conclusions about the essence of the matter from a single condition of the planets" ; presumably, it would be similar to trying to judge the actions of a 34 year old when all one knows about him is what he was like as a 3 year old; you need the conditions of his birth and his present circumstances in order to make a relatively informed guess at what his life will be like in his 35th year.


Examining Ma'shar's Techniques

My primary aim in reading Ma'shar's book was to try to sort out how the radix, profected and solar return charts are to be read relative to each other. It looks as though I'll have to expand that to include directing the Asc through the bounds as he uses their transitioning to set the period in which the profection and solar return take place. Here, I will not follow his calculation method exactly as I've tried that before with little luck. The standard method is to use the mean ascensional time for a degree in each sign; I'm going to use the actual time for each ascensional degree to see if it provides better timing (although I will also include the timing produced by the mean method for the purpose of comparison). As well, although Abu Ma'shar gives no examples of directing planets degree by degree, I will look at the directed positions of planets, lots, and cusps based on the OA direction methods I used to study Worsdale's and 10 other radix charts, as well as Queen Victoria's chart.

As a first test case I've decided to look at the year 1992 in Queen Elizabeth II's life which she called her Annus Horribilis. Hopefully the directions, turnings, and revolutions surrounding the period will indicate the events she encountered, throw some light on where and how they arose, and possibly why they left her so aggrieved.

In Dykes glossary to the Abu Ma'shar text, the distribution technique is defined as:

"The primary directions of a releaser (often the degree of the Ascendant) through the bounds. The bound lord of the distribution is the distributor, and any body or ray which the releaser encounters is the partner."

The old texts often tell us to take the distance between two chart elements in equal degrees and turn them into unequal (ascension) degrees equating one unequal degree of motion to one year of time. Ma'shar's distribution technique does use ascension degrees but rather than take the actual ascension value of each degree he uses the mean of the ascension values of each sign calculated for the the latitude of the place in question. For example, in examining Queen Elizabeth's birth in 1926 he likely would have used the rising time of Capricorn at 51 N 30 which was 26.62°, giving a mean motion of 0.8873 (26.62 / 30°) for each degree; however, the total motion is not evenly distributed across each degree of Capricorn (see Astro-seek Oblique Ascension Table for 51N30 in 1926):

- the first 10° take 313.26-303.05 = 10.21° degrees to rise, averaging 0.9794 per degree
- the next 10° take 322.10-313.26 = 8.84° degrees to rise, averaging 0.884 per degree
- the last 10° take 329.67 - 322.10 = 7.57° degrees to rise, averaging 0.757 per degree

So it takes 26° 37' 12" of motion in ascension degrees to move through 30° of Capricorn in the zodiac at 51 N 30 latitude in 1926.

And that motion is not evenly distributed across all 30°; this can throw the timing off quite a bit depending on the geographical latitude, the year, and the bound, planet or lot's actual degree in the zodiac. As I haven't, previously, had much luck in trying to time events using distributions for this exercise I'm going to use the actual rather than the mean motion of each degree. I am also going to use the aspect/body of the outer planets which, traditionally, would not have been in play. The Distribution

As calculated by the software I have access to that includes such calculations (Janus, Delphic Oracle, Planetdance); they all use the individual sign's "mean" time of ascension and give varying results when looking at roughly the same period of interest:

Janus

- July 19, 1989 - square of Jupiter in the bounds of Saturn
- November 4, 1989 - square of Mars in the bounds of Saturn
- April 21, 1991 - bound of Mars partnering with Mars by square
- May 11, 1993 - bound of Mercury in Gemini partnering with Mars by square

I'm not quite sure how this can be; they are obviously moving the Ascendant through Taurus into Gemini but they have it meeting the square of Jupiter (22 TA) before the square of Mars (20 TA) and into the bound of Mars (27 TA) with no mention of the opposition of Saturn (24 TA). I've selected the Egyptian Bounds (Robbins), 1 degree per year, and the Asc but possibly there is another setting I've missed.

Planetdance

Ascensional Times
- January 24, 1989 - bounds of Saturn in Taurus
- November 22, 1991 - bounds of Mars
- August 2, 1993 - bounds of Mercury in Gemini

Ptolemaic Primary Directions
- May 2, 1988 - bounds of Saturn in Taurus
- April 27, 1991 - bounds of Mars
- May 16, 1993 - bounds of Mercury in Gemini

Delphic Oracle

- May 2, 1988 - confines of Saturn in Taurus
- May 31, 1988 - square of Jupiter
- August 23, 1989 - opposition of Saturn
- April 28, 1991 - confines of Mars
- May 17, 1993 - confines of Mercury in Gemini
- October 4, 1996 - sextile of Mercury

Calculation using actual ascension time of each degree

During her Annus Horribilis Queen Elizabeth's radix Ascendant, after only 66 years, had already moved from 21 Capricorn through Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, and into the end of Taurus; all signs which are called crooked and said to be fast because they rise in less than 2 hours. Specifically, the distribution ran as follows in the years around 1992:

- July 14, 1989 - bound of Saturn in Taurus partnering with Mars by square
- July 21, 1989 - the square of Neptune
- November 1, 1989 - the square of Jupiter
- January 8, 1991 - the opposition of Saturn
- August 21, 1992 - the bound of Mars in Taurus still partnering with Saturn by opposition
- November 11, 1992 - sextile of Uranus
- August 9, 1994 - bound of Mercury in Gemini still partnering with Uranus by sextile
- October 28, 1997 - sextile of Mercury

For the period of interest (1992) the distribution bounds run from 24 to 28 Taurus; the degrees span the IC (lowest point in the chart); the distributor and partner roles are transitioning as follows (events are listed within related periods):

• Jan 8, 1991 to August 20 - Saturn distributing in partnership with Saturn by opposition
  • Jan 18, 1992 - Photos of Sarah Ferguson & Texas millionaire Steve Wyatt
  • Mar 19, 1992 - Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson separate
  • Apr 21, 1992 - Queen's 66th birthday
  • Apr 23, 1992 - Princess Anne divorces husband Mark Phillips
  • Jun 07, 1992 - Publication of Diana: Her Story
  • Aug 20, 1992 - Photos of Sarah Ferguson bathing topless
• August 21 to November 10 - Mars distributing in partnership with Saturn by opposition
  • Aug 24, 1992 - Diana and James Gilbey phone conversations published ("Squidgygate")
• November 11 to August 9, 1994 - Mars distributing in partnership with Uranus by sextile
  • Nov 20, 1992 - Fire at Windsor Castle
  • Nov 24, 1992 - Annus Horribilis speech
  • Nov 26, 1992 - PM informed the House of Commons that Queen will begin to pay taxes and beginning in April 1993 will take on the working expenses for the bulk of her family
  • Dec 12, 1992 - House of Commons announces Charles & Diana are to divorce
  • Jan, 1993 - Charles/Camilla phone conversations published in Australian newspaper ("Camillagate")

The key events involved the media frenzy surrounding the breakups of three of her children's marriages, the £36.5 million fire that raged through Windsor Castle, and a significant increase in the Queen's personal taxes and expenses. The distribution spans the 3rd (newspapers) and 4th (family, property).

Abu Ma'shar tells us that when the distributor and partner are both infortunes and the transitioning (handing off) involves infortunes it indicates powerful adversities, bad conditions in all things, illnesses and fear of death. While the Queen was not ill or threatened with death she did have to deal with many problems involving the media (Saturn in 9th), her property and family (Saturn opposition 4th) her position (Saturn conjunct 10th and Mars ruling 10th) and unexpected expenses (Uranus in 2nd).

That the bulk of the trying circumstances she had to deal with were brought on by her children is not immediately apparent; unless Saturn's overcoming square to Jupiter (general significator of children) in aversion to the radix 5th is a sign they were a complete surprise to her. That may be a bit of a stretch but found some corroboration on checking the lots and 12th parts.

Lots and 12th Parts

Missing from all of the above are directions through the bounds to the lots and 12th parts. While Ma'shar does not give examples of this for the 12ths; he does for the lots (p289-293), claiming they become active when the directed Ascendant meets with them and that their management is handed over to the distributor/partner pairs as each new one takes over until the end of the native's life.

For example, on p291 he describes the Asc meeting with the Lot of Courage and Risk-taking while Venus was distributing, so Venus manages the lot until the Asc moves into the bound of Mercury, at which point Mercury takes over management of the lot and then the Asc moves into the sextile of Saturn and so "Saturn manages the Lot of courage by means of the light of his sextile in the distribution of Mercury" and this handing off continues for life.

The following lots mentioned by Abu Ma'shar and planetary 12th parts fall between 21 CP and 0 GE which puts them under the management of the time, those in bold are ruled by either Saturn or Mars:

- 17 AQ 29 Wealth (Nov 24, 1942)
- 28 AQ 10 Enmity (Jun 21, 1948)
- 06 PI 21 Bonds & Imprisonments (Jun 28, 1952)
- 02 AR 19 Prosperity (Jul 27, 1964)
- 17 AR 52 Enemies (Oct 10, 1971)
- 19 AR 31 Children (Jul 21, 1972)
- 19 AR 31 Siblings (Jul 21, 1972)
- 03 TA 22 Spirit (Apr 27 1979)

- 25 AQ 33 Uranus (Feb 23, 1947)
- 02 TA 36 Sun (Dec 6, 1978)
- 16 TA 26 Neptune (Apr 16, 1986)

The lot of Children is ruled by Mars and the Uranus 12th part is ruled by Saturn so perhaps she was caught off guard, especially by her male children. Although I found the OA directions for the period gave a more certain indication that her children's activities in the year might be critical:

- the directed Lot of Children critical at 29 SA until it changed degrees after August 21
- the directed Lot of Children, male turned critical at 0 GE after June 21 and remained critical for the rest of the year
- Mercury, ruler of the radix 5th, changed degree between August 21 and September 21, moving from 11 CP to 10 CP in a mitigated inconjunct (by equal ascensions) with the directed Moon at 10 GE which was itself opposed to her directed lot of Enmity at 10 SA

The involvement of the media is also indicated by the directed 3rd/9th axis moving from 6 AQ/LE to 5 AQ/LE between July 21 and August 21 although no planet is in aspect to the directed or radix axis the change of degrees does emphasize the two houses, reinforcing the indications of the distribution which partially covers the 3rd and those of Saturn (distributor) in the 9th.

Next task is to see if the Profection leans the same way.

Hello Jane,
You can check
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/astrolo ... us-valens/
and this one combining predictive techniques with examples
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/astrolo ... -examples/

Not sure about the similarities or differences between both.

Some metaphors of Abu Ma'shar translated by Giuseppe Bezza
http://www.cieloeterra.it/testi.metafore/metafore.html

Best to you,
Ouranos

Hi Ouranos, thank you for the links. The second one looks the most interesting as at this point I'm more interested in how the radix, profected, and solar return charts interact rather than with the profection technique itself; will give it a closer read in the next day or two.

Profections

From what I can remember, I first began to use the annual profection technique in December 2002 when I enrolled in Robert Zoller's Foundational Course. The method taught was to turn the chart (using Alchabitius Semi-Arc houses) at the rate of one house per year and use the cusp of the resulting house as the year's Profected Ascendant. I continued to use this method until around 2006-07 when I started to explore various techniques on my own; at which point I switched back to Placidus houses (which I had used prior to taking Zoller's courses) and began using Equal Houses from the Ascendant for profections as most of the older texts I was reading at the time (Robert Hand's Omar of Tiberias in particular) said to count from the Ascendant giving each house 30°.

Abu Ma'shar's profection technique is similar to the one Zoller taught in that he starts from the radix Ascendant, counting one house per year;however, he also counts by whole sign. If both counts land you in the same sign and that sign holds only one house cusp, you're good to go. If, however, the house cusp is in a different sign than the one you reached by a whole sign count or if the whole sign holds two house cusps instead of one we have to decide which house/sign indications actually apply to the year: the whole sign house, the sign with the cusp? both? neither? Abu Ma'shar provides guidelines for two situations:

1. Quadrant House Differs from Whole Sign House: if we count whole signs to find the 5th but the cusp of the 5th is in the 6th whole sign we are to use the actual cusp of the 5th House as the profected Ascendant for the year but take indications for children (5th) from both the 5th and 6th whole signs (VI.2, 21-24)
2. Whole Sign House has Two Cusps: if we count whole signs to the 11th but the cusp of the 11th is in the 12th whole sign which also contains the cusp of the 12th house, we are to use the 12th whole sign for both the 11th and 12th year profections (VI.2, 25-26) He says nothing about what to do with the quadrant 11th (and corresponding 5th) house.

He gives no guidance on the handling of intercepted houses in profections although in his discussion on transits he says a planet transiting a sign that is intercepted in a house is to have its indications assigned to the house it is actually transiting (VII.1,3-4)

The Problem with Abu Ma'shar's profection technique

If I apply the above guidelines to Queen Elizabeth's chart we get the following: Profected 1st - Capricorn is the first whole sign and contains the cusp of the 1st House; Profected Asc is 21 CP 27; indications are from all planets in the 1st and probably the sign of Aquarius which is intercepted in the 1st

Profected 2nd - second whole sign is Aquarius intercepted in the 1st, the 2nd House cusp is in Pisces so the profected Asc is 18 PI 32 and indications are from the sign Aquarius, planets in Aquarius, the sign of Pisces and planets in the 2nd regardless of the sign they occupy [in this scenario Aquarius and the planets in Aquarius give indications for the both the 1st and 2nd]

Profected 3rd - third whole sign is Pisces and the cusp of the 3rd is in Taurus. I assume we are to use the 3rd House cusp, 00 TA 22, as the profected Ascendant but what are we to do with Pisces, which holds the 2nd House cusp? According to Abu Ma'shar as the third whole sign we need to take its indications for 3rd House matters but what on earth are we to do with Aries, the 4th whole sign intercepted in the 2nd? The sign supposedly has nothing to do with the 3rd as it doesn't occupy the 3rd, and will never be taken into consideration as Taurus (the 4th whole sign) falls on the quadrant 3rd and 4th meaning, buy the first guideline, that Taurus would be used for the profected 3rd and 4th years; Pisces, as the 4th whole sign, would be ignored except as it applies to the quadrant 2nd house.

Dykes, in his introduction, says it is probably similar scenarios that pushed Medieval astrologers into dropping whole sign counts and using the houses alone.

"Since the apparent shifting of the cusps is what creates these scenarios, it's probably inevitable that someone using divisions [quadrant houses] would eventually just start ignoring the signs. This is what happened in the Latin and early modern West: signs dropped away, and only houses by divisions were used for profections." (p54)

He may well be right but I find it odd that they defaulted to counting by quadrant houses when another supported option, counting 30° from the degree of the Ascendant for each house, was used by, for example, Omar, Ibn Ezra, Al-Qabisi, and Al-biruni. Plus, the method (essentially an Equal House system) has the advantage of removing any difficulties involving mismatched whole sign/quadrant houses, two cusps occupying one sign or intercepted signs.

I also wonder if Dorotheus, Paulus, Valens, and others may also have used the Ascendant degree for the start of each profected house even if they did not spell it out; they do all say to begin counting from the ascendant. For these reasons, I'm going to continue to forgo the Medieval profection by house technique as well as Abu Ma'shar's hybrid profection technique and stick to profecting by Equal House, even though for this particular profection the whole sign count matches the quadrant count and only one cusp is connected to the profection sign.

Profecting

Queen Elizabeth turned 66 on April 21, 1992 which puts the profection for April 21, 1992 thru April 21, 1993 in the 7th whole sign from the radix rising sign. The 7th has Cancer on the cusp, making 21 CA the Profected Ascendant and the Moon Lord of the Year. Abu Ma'shar advises that the profection coming to the 7th means the person will be dealing with "women, conflicts, and contrariety" (p447) he then goes on to give delineations of Solar Return planets in the profected houses (something I will skip over for now).

Looking at the condition of the Lord of the Year, the Moon, angular in the 1st, one would expect changes (Moon) of a decisive and lasting nature (in fixed Leo) involving marriage, women (Moon, association with 7th) and strongly affecting the person's life (1st).

Paulus stresses that only those planets looking at the profected 1st will have any say in the events of the year. The planets always carry their radix significations and temporarily pick up their profected significations. Edit: Corrected Mercury's aspect.

We would expect the main events in the the year to be manifested by the planets managing the year namely the distributors and their partners (Saturn, Mars, Uranus) and the LoY (Moon), all of which are actively engaged with the profected 1st. The houses they are emphasizing are the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. As well, any planets in the profected angles would be apt to contribute to or produce their own effects. Here, the Sun is angular in P10 and he is reinforcing indications for the 2nd and 7th.

The Moon (LoY) has reached the place of Mars in the radix 1st which Dorotheus says will bring disasters (although not immediately as Mars is with benefics) (Pingree, IV.I.200) which reinforces radix Saturn's overcoming square with Mars, both being malefics in mutual reception by domicile and in their own terms with Mars applying and within 3° 35'. Saturn is made worse by being retrograde and completely out of sect (ex conditione). An aspect that strong, between planets managing the times, is almost certain to produce an effect in accordance with their significations. We are also told the Moon reaching the 1st indicates the person's life will be spoiled (IV.1.206).

Uranus, managing with Mars, is drawn into the configuration by being overcome by the trine of Saturn (2° 55') and interestingly, in the distribution, Saturn acting as the distributor and managing by his opposition to himself at the beginning of the year (most of the events revolve around the Queen's children and their marriages with Saturn in P5); on August 21 hands off the distribution to Mars (ruling P9) while still managing thru his opposition and on August 24 "Squidgygate" erupts, and then, on November 11, Saturn hands off the management to Uranus in Mars terms and a conflagration happens soon after on November 21.

The Moon reaching Jupiter and Venus, who are also in the radix 1st, is said to indicate the person will rejoice and be cheerful but they are with the malefic Mars (ruling P5) and the two are both badly placed in the profected 8th. Jupiter rules the radix 11th and 2nd (her children's marriages, money) and profected 6th (injury) and 9th (publicity) while Venus rules the radix 4th (family, property) and 8th (taxes, inheritances), profected 4th (endings) and 11th (children's marriage). So the two are reinforcing the main indications.

OA Directions

Checking the OA directions, during August 21 - September 21 ("squidgygate" period) the directed Ascendant moved out of a conjunction with radix Saturn at 24 SC in the 9th.

Directed Mercury (10 CP, ruler of the radix 5th) moved into a mitigated (by equal ascension) inconjunct (opposition) with the directed Lord of the Year (Moon 10 GE). And directed Pluto (15 AR) moved into a mitigated conjunction/opposition? (they occupy each other's antiscia/contra-antisica) with the directed MC (15 VI). And the Lot of Children moved out the critical degree 29 SA. The events of the period appeared to have reached a climax with regards to her children although matters between Charles and Diana would not come to a formal end until December 12 when their intent to divorce was announced during which time directed Jupiter (ruler of radix 11th, children's marriage) moved out of a conjunction with Mars (ruler of P5) and directed Uranus moved out of a square with directed Mercury (ruler of the radix 5th).

Here, to, the planets managing the times are active: Saturn, Mars, Uranus, Moon.

Next task is to see how the Solar Return fits in to all this.

Jane,
Abu Mashar's developed and worked with his system around a latitude of 30N.
Do you think he might have written differently if he had been living under the latitude of London?
Just a thought here when we look at intercepted houses which is more of a concern the higher you live on Earth.
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:35 am Jane,
Abu Mashar's developed and worked with his system around a latitude of 30N.
Do you think he might have written differently if he had been living under the latitude of London?
Just a thought here when we look at intercepted houses which is more of a concern the higher you live on Earth.
Ouranos

Hi Ouranos, not sure it would have made a difference, he did recognize intercepted houses when discussing solar returns, so he appears to have been well aware of them:

And if two or three signs were apportioned to a single house, then the indications of the planet when it comes to be in it, will be in accordance with the indications of the house house which they are apportioned to. (p477)

janegca wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:52 pm Hi Ouranos, not sure it would have made a difference, he did recognize intercepted houses when discussing solar returns, so he appears to have been well aware of them:

And if two or three signs were apportioned to a single house, then the indications of the planet when it comes to be in it, will be in accordance with the indications of the house house which they are apportioned to. (p477)

And of course the first-mentioned scenario (just two signs apportioned to one house) would not even be a case of interception, but simply of house boundaries (cusps) being non-identical with sign boundaries, which is pretty much the definition (or at least part of the definition) of any system of quadrant houses used for casting charts anywhere in the world.

After pouring over Abu Ma'shar's text once again, it appears I need to backtrack. While the distribution sets the tone for a period of years and the profections set up the indications for a specific year all planets are modified by their condition in the solar return for the year in question. As a result, trying to analyze any planet in any chart without reference to the the other charts does not, according to Abu Ma'shar, give a complete picture of the times. He summarizes all we need to look at in Book IX.4, starting off with:

"Now, of the seven planets, [some] have two houses and [others] one house, and in the revolutions of years [profection and solar return] and months they have an indication according to the place of their houses relative to them (and their places relative to their houses), and according to their own places and the place of their houses in terms of four positions [1] from the Ascendant of the root, [2] from the sign of the terminal point [profection], [3] from the Ascendant of the revolution of the year, and [4] from the Ascendant of the revolution of the month (and in accordance with the place of these four from them as well as from their houses)....[and] in the knowledge of that [we find] surprising, recondite secrets, profound, and beneficial in all cases of the knowledge of the stars." (p.577-8)

The "position" template has four steps; for each planet under consideration, examine the planet's position from:
1. the radix Ascendant
2. the sign of the year's Profected 1st
3. the sign of the Solar Return (SR) 1st
4. the sign of the revolution of the month (which I'm not looking at here)

He gives two examples of this approach (for the first three steps) in the last chapter of the book IX.9 (I summarized these in my first post in this thread but will repeat them here):

Example One

Say examining a planet in the radix 2nd is found in:

1. the SR 5th from the radix Ascendant
2. the 10th from the sign of the profection
3. the 9th from the Solar Return ascendant

If the planet is a "fortune or made fortunate" then assets (2nd) house "will go from him to the children [5th] and the Sultan [10th], and he will spend assets for reasons of travel, and travelers, and invisible things, and men of godliness [9th] and he will delight [fortune] in that." (p.668)

If the planet was an "infortune or made unfortunate, it indicates that the children [5th] will steal money from him, and he will spend money because of the Sultan [10th], travel, and travelers [9th], and he will be distressed [infortune] by that." (p.669)

Example Two

If the planet was in the 9th in the radix but found in:

1. the SR 5th from the radix Ascendant
2. the 10th from the sign of the profection
3. the 2nd from the Solar Return ascendant

And it was a fortune (or made fortunate) then "it indicates the child [5th] will travel, and will gain authority or benefits in his travel [9th], and assets or gifts [2nd] will pass to the owner of the revolution from his children because of the travel, or from an absent person, [9th] and he and his children will delight [fortune] in that. But if the planet was an infortune or made unfortunate, it indicates distress and something detestable in relation to these." (p.669)

Division
He also describes four "divisions" which establish the possible ways the planets can form combinations when (p.578):

1. not in domicile in the radix or the solar return
2. not in domicile in the radix but in domicile in the solar return
3. in domicile in the radix but not in domicile in the solar return
4. in domicile in both the radix and solar return

Followed by descriptions of how these combinations are made in each chart (radix, profected, solar return) in each of the four "divisions" and in each of the four positions with added instructions to consider the planets position from its own domiciles and vice versa (p579-584) and with a slightly different set of instructions for the lights as they rule only one sign each (p584-591). Adding up all of the possible combinations up, he tells us they come to 196 in total; an insane amount of detail to keep track of and that's not even counting aspect combinations or any combinations that arise from the months, days, and hours!

So, how to possibly manage all this? He tells us to focus on "every planet which was governor of the year" (p.600) this would include any planet having a share in managing the times, including the distributor, his partner, the lord of the year, the fardār rulers, Ptolemy's ruler of the Age, or any other time-lord one uses. He points out that if only, a few planets satisfy all these conditions there will be fewer combinations.

He provides one detailed example involving Venus as the Lord of the Year ruling Taurus and Libra but posited in Gemini. This puts it in the 1st division, a planet ruling two signs and not in domicile in either the radix or the solar return chart. The following is a paraphrase of his 1st division rules (IX.4.8-16, p.579-580) and the way he applies them in his example (IX.4.91-106, p.597-601) (this is the same example Tania Daniels describes in an article referenced by Ouranos in an earlier post):

The rules for the first division (a planet ruling two signs, not in domicile in the radix nor in the solar return) are:

1. planet's place relative to the Asc and the Asc relative to planet's place
2. planet's two domiciles relative to the Asc and the Asc relative to each planet's domicile
3. planet's place from each domicile and each domicile's place from the planet
4. planet's place in the SR from each of its SR domiciles and each SR domicile's place from the planet's place in the SR
5. planet's position in the SR relative to the radix Asc and the radix Asc's place in the SR relative to the planet's position in the SR

The example chart has the radix Asc in Sagittarius, the Profected Ascendant in Taurus, and the SR Ascendant in Scorpio with Venus, LoY, in Gemini in the radix, and Cancer in the SR chart. Applying the 1st division rules generates the following which includes Abu Ma'shar's interpretation of the combinations (note that Abu Ma'shar often treats Venus' and her domiciles as the ascendant or 1st when forming combinations and that he uses derived houses from these '1st houses' in his interpretations (V.2, p407-408). I've made guesses at how he arrived at his interpretations; please feel free to comment on any that you think are off-track especially as I'm not sure, when he refers to 'women', that he is using Venus as a significator based on her nature or her carrying her 7th house significations into all interpretations):

1. radix Venus is in the 7th from the radix Asc and the radix Asc is in the 7th from Venus whose combinations may indicate:
   • he will associate with women (7th), be involved in contrarieties (7th) and women (7th) will associate with him
2. Taurus is the 6th from the Sagittarius (radix Asc), Libra is the 11th; Sagittarius is in the 8th from Taurus and 3rd from Libra whose combinations may indicate:
   • 6th (Taurus) / 11th (Libra) combinations (treating Sagittarius as the 1st):
     • mental irritation (SR Asc in radix 12th?) with female and male servants (6th) and they will possibly notice the irritation (Venus opposite Sagittarius?)
     • he will be successful in something hoped for (11th) and assets (Venus as significator of property? or Venus in radix 8th? or both?)
     • he will delight in women (Venus, 11th?) and they will correspond with him (11th rules friends) and flatter him, and some of them will become ill (6th)
     • some of his siblings (male and female) (SR Venus in 3rd from Taurus) will be antagonistic towards him (SR Asc in radix 12th?) because of some servants (6th) or a man of a bad type (6th? 8th?) and it will upset his enjoyment (11th) of things sometimes due to ailments (6th) in the upper body (SR Venus in Cancer, breast, lower lungs are upper body) and belly (6th)
     • various things will be presented to him for purchase (Venus?), including slaves (6th)
   • 3rd / 8th combinations (treating Taurus and Libra as 1st houses):
     • being involved with siblings (3rd) and corresponding with them (Venus in 3rd from Taurus) and their coming to him and toil with them, and conflict because of assets (Venus, 8th?)
     • he will be devoted to reports (3rd) about the ancestors and ancient matters (Libra is 4th from SR Venus) and being present at the funeral (4th) of one of those who are burdensome to him
     • distress (8th?) because of some riding animals (SR Asc is in the 12th of large animals, Dykes points out Sagittarius rules horses)
3. Venus is in the 2nd from Taurus, 9th from Libra; Taurus is in the 12th from Venus, Libra is in the 5th from Venus whose combinations may indicate:
   • 2nd (from Taurus) / 9th (from Libra) combinations (Taurus and Libra treated as the 1st):
     • assets (2nd) from women (Venus) and he will show persistence in seeking them (Dykes points out treating Taurus as an Asc but its ruler Venus in Gemini in the 2nd which implies the person will persistently (Taurus fixed) seek assets)
     • he will toil and travel (9th) in seeking them and he will rid himself of burdensome assets (??) perhaps giving them as gifts (Venus) to servants and slaves
     • he will hoard (fixed Taurus?) clothing and dishes (Venus objects?)
   • 5th / 12th combinations (place of SR Venus treated as the 1st):
     • he will be irritated (SR Asc in radix 12th?) by riding animals (12th), and reports and messengers (5th signifies ambassadors), and women and children (5th)
     • distressed by reports that come to him (5th signifying ambassadors) of enemies (12th)
     • he will think about the mistreatment (12th) of one of his children (5th), and perhaps he will be blessed (Venus as a fortune?) with children
4. SR Venus is in the 3rd from Taurus and 10th from Libra; Taurus is in the the 11th from SR Venus and Libra is in the 4th from SR Venus:
   • 3rd / 10th (Taurus and Libra as treated as the 1st):
     • devoted to the condition of siblings and relatives (3rd) and his going to them and making an effort in getting what they needed
     • some of his relatives (3rd) will associate with the Sultan (10th), or
     • he will gain because of the power of his relatives (10th)
   • 4th / 11th (Venus' place treated as the 1st):
     • because of real-estate (4th) and praise for the results of his affairs (11th), the things he wished and hoped for will be within reach (11th)
5. SR Venus is in the 8th from the radix Asc; Sagittarius, the radix Asc, is in the 6th from SR Venus (treating Sagittarius as the 1st):
   • he and one of his women (Venus) will fall ill (6th)
   • his servants (6th) and adversaries (7th?), and the illness will return and the funerals will be publicized, and he will be devoted to cemeteries and ancestors (Libra 4th from SR Venus or 8th?)
   • and also devoted to female servants and slaves (as well as their purchase), and the market of cattle-dealers, and songs and amusement (Venus), and all of it will weigh heavily upon him (SR Asc in 12th? or 8th?)

After all this, Abu Ma'shar instructs us to do the same for Venus' houses relative to the profected year and solar return year, and the Ascendant of the solar return month as well as for "every planet which was the governor of the year" (p.600).

He doesn't provide the 'position' only version of the above. Taking a quick stab at it, Venus is in:

1. the 7th from the radix Asc
2. the 2nd from the profected Asc
3. the 9th from the SR Asc

Venus is a fortune but all we can safely say about her is that she is peregrine in Gemini (assuming she is not in her term) which harms her, and she is strong in an angle. So possibly he will be involved with women (7th) who are foreign or travel (9th) and they may make him money (2nd) or he will happily (Venus) spend money (2nd) on gifts (Venus), trips or educational pursuits (9th) or have difficulties over such things because of a woman (7th).

Next step is to try to apply this to Queen Elizabeth's chart, in particular, I want to look at the differences between the years 1991, 1992, and 1993 to see if, examining the distributors and profection in this way, will highlight 1992 as the more difficult of the three.

janegca wrote: After pouring over Abu Ma'shar's text once again, it appears I need to backtrack. While the distribution sets the tone for a period of years and the profections set up the indications for a specific year all planets are modified by their condition in the solar return for the year in question. As a result, trying to analyze any planet in any chart without reference to the the other charts does not, according to Abu Ma'shar, give a complete picture of the times. He summarizes all we need to look at in Book IX.4,

Some people like the tedium of this stuff, bless them (you, Jane :)). After working with it for a while I know that I am not one of them LOL.

I always try to steer toward direct questions (horary) with folks who ask me for astro advice. Someone says "can you read my birth chart?" And I think to myself "ugh!" (the voice inside me nooooooooooooo ::falling down a deep pit::)

Sorry to hear that you're back to square one

hi jane

i kind of 2nd jasons comments to you... bless you for what you are trying to do and that you are sharing it here too!

i read ben dykes latin translation of abu mashar - book 3 of persian nativities on solar revolutions and got a lot from that book.. it motivated me to pick up the book i think you are now processing - abu mashar on the revolutions of the years of the nativities - the arabic translation... i am on page 136 at present - still called 'the introduction' until page 143! its a slow process for me.. i am tossing out some of the stuff and keen to know other parts too.. i guess i am treating it like i would if i went to a chinese smorgasboard, except this is suppose to be arabic i guess!! good luck in your astro adventures.. thanks for the updates..

Jason wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 2:25 pm

janegca wrote: After pouring over Abu Ma'shar's text once again, it appears I need to backtrack. While the distribution sets the tone for a period of years and the profections set up the indications for a specific year all planets are modified by their condition in the solar return for the year in question. As a result, trying to analyze any planet in any chart without reference to the the other charts does not, according to Abu Ma'shar, give a complete picture of the times. He summarizes all we need to look at in Book IX.4,

Some people like the tedium of this stuff, bless them (you, Jane ). After working with it for a while I know that I am not one of them LOL.

I always try to steer toward direct questions (horary) with folks who ask me for astro advice. Someone says "can you read my birth chart?" And I think to myself "ugh!" (the voice inside me nooooooooooooo ::falling down a deep pit::)

Sorry to hear that you're back to square one

lol...I've said 'ugh' most of my life; it does take forever but I've gotten stubborn in my old age; enough hemming and hawing, I want something concrete.