Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Trump
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anne_MacLeod_Trump

Source note in astro-databank:

P.T. quotes bitrh certificate found online. Since the document was evidently posted by Trump, some caution is advised even though there is no evidence that the document was altered. Previously this entry was rated "A" (from memory) and had a birth time of 9:51 AM with the following source: LMR quotes a private source who obtained the data from his mother, confirmed by another astrologer who said, "He laughed, then called his mom."

On Skyscript Astrology Forum, subforum "Nativities & General Astrology" recently there had been a discussion about this topic ("Trump born at 9.51 am according to well respected astrologer", by Greg Young, Sat Oct 12, 2024 12:29 pm).

Based on two significant life events I will try to shed some light on the matter.

As first life event I will use the death of the father.

(Fred) Trump finally fell ill with pneumonia and was admitted to Long Island Jewish Medical Center (LIJMC) for a few weeks, where he died at age 93 on June 25, 1999.

(Source: url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Trump[/url])

It is highly recommended to study the publication "The Signifier of Father" by Cemal Çiçek:

https://ia802802.us.archive.org/3/items ... Father.pdf



Birthtime of Donald J. Trump: 10:54 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 256)





Birthtime of Donald J. Trump: 9:51 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 256)






As second life event I will use the death of the mother.

She died one year later on August 7, 2000, at Long Island Jewish Medical Center in New Hyde Park, New York, at age 88.

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anne_MacLeod_Trump)


Birthtime of Donald J. Trump: 10:54 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 256)





Birthtime of Donald J. Trump: 9:51 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 256)




According to the results of the analysis of these two significant life events, death of the father and death of the mother I conclude that the "correct" birth time is 10:54 a.m. and NOT 09:51 a.m.

Zachariel

Thanks, Zak.

Is Isaak Starkman around for confirmation?

Hi Greg,
I don't know if Isaac Starkman is around for confirmation.
I am sure he is a recognized and experienced astrologer, but I highly doubt that he is the highest authority when it comes to birth time corrections.
If I have enough time and desire, I can also try to compare the two birth times with the help of Microastrology using also other significant life events. But at present I don't know if I will do so.

He has posted on here before so it would be interesting to see his opinion.

Your time is the commonly used one I believe?

Your time is the commonly used one I believe?

Since this time that I have favored according to my astrological analytical results is also preferred by astrodata-bank, you seem to be right with your assumption.

Zachariel, thank you very much for this comparison of birth times for Donald Trump. I see that you and Cemal Cicek haven't made predictions for the result of the coming USA presidential election using micro astrology?

Hi Therese,
since I was wrong with my prediction of a possible threat (around or on October 21st, 2024) to Trump, I will refrain a bit from making another prediction.

Addendum:

After the life events "death of father" and "death of mother" I will now examine another event in the life history of Donald J. Trump.
This event is the first marriage of Donald J. Trump.

I will compare the two birth times under discussion each time regarding the event-related planetary pictures. Those birth times have an advantage where the event-related planetary picture deviates only minimally from the exact symmetry and is still within the permitted orb values.

Event:
First marriage (with Ivana Trump, born Zelníčková)
9 April 1977
Marble Collegiate Church, New York City, 40°n44'44.106", 73°w59'12.8256

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivana_Trump
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_1977

Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 256)
(permitted orb: approx. 30")

Because we have to take also into account the harmonics produced by square and opposition we have to add or subtract values of Harmonic 512 or Harmonic 1024.

Harmonic 512: 00°42'11.25"
Harmonic 1024: 00°21'05.63"

solar MN/VE (1°23'59") = natal MN/VE (0°42'10") = natal VE/JU (1°23'39" = natal SU/MO (1°23'47)
MN/VE, love unions. Love ties. Pleasant connection (Rules, 146).
VE/JU, lovers bliss. Rapture of joy. Happiness in love (Rules, 181).
SU/MO, marriage. Man and woman (husband and wife) (Rules, 105)

1°23'59" - 0°42'11.25" = 0°41'47.75"
0°42'10" - 0°41'47.75" = 0°0'22.25" (deviation from exact symmetry - d.f.e.s.)

1°23'59" - 1°23'39" = 0°0'20" (d.f.e.s.)

1°23'59" - 1°23'47" = 0°0'12" (d.f.e.s.)

1°23'47" - 00°42'11.25" = 0°41'35.75"
0°42'10" - 0°41'35.75" = 0°0'34.25" (d.f.e.s)


Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 256)
(permitted orb: approx. 30")

solar MN/VE (1°22'27") = natal MN/VE (0°40'40") = natal VE/JU (1°22'05") ≠ natal SO/MO (1°06'58")
MN/VE, love unions. Love ties. Pleasant connection. (Rules, 146)
VE/JU, lovers bliss. Rapture of joy. Happiness in love. (Rules, 181)

1°22'27" - 0°42'11.25" = 0°40'15.75"
0°40'40" - 0°40'15.75" = 0°0'24.25" (d.f.e.s.)

1°22'27" - 1°22'05" = 0°0'22" (d.f.e.s.)

Note that natal SU/MO is not included in the planetary picture anymore.




Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Lunar Return (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

Harmonic 32: 11°15'00.00"
Harmonic 64: 05°37'30.00"

lunar SU/CU (1°51'12") = natal SU/MA (1°50'19") = natal MO (13°11'25")
SU/CU, the bridegroom. The married man. (Rules, p. 115)
SU/CU = MO, the bride and bridegroom. The betrothed man before the wedding. (Rules, p. 115)
SU/MA = MO, the woman's husband. (Rules, p. 109)

13°11'25" - 11°15'00-00" = 1°56'25"
1°56'25" - 1°51'12" = 0°5'13" (d.f.e.s.)
1°56'25" - 1°50'19" = 0°6'6" (d.f.e.s.)




Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Lunar Return (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

lunar SU/CU (1°50'10") = natal SU/MA (1°48'20") ≠ natal MO (12°40'17")

12°40'17" - 11°15'00.00" = 1°25'17"
1°50'10" - 1°25'17" = 0°24'53" (permitted orb exceeded)
1°50'10" - 1°48'20" = 0°1'50" (d.f.e.s.)

Natal MO is not included in the planetary picture anymore when we choose 09.51 a.m. as birthtime.




Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

Harmonic 128: 02°48'45.00"
Harmonic 256: 01°24'22.50"

secundary MN/CU (4°52'31") = secundary SU (4°51'16")
MN/CU = SU, marriages (Rules, p. 153)

4°52'31" - 4°51'16" = 0°1'15" (d.f.e.s.)




Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

secundary MN/CU (4°52'34") ≠ secundary SU (4°48'46")

4°52'34" - 4°48'46" = 3'48" (permitted orb exceeded; secundary SU not included in planetary picture anymore)





Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

Harmonic 32: 11°15'00.00"
Harmonic 64: 05°37'30.00"

transit VE (13°15'01") = natal JU/CU (1°59'12") = natal MO (13°11'25")
JU/CU = VE, love's happiness connected with married life. (Rules, p. 215)
JU/CU = MO, happy marriage or partnership of a women. Cheerful hours in a large community.

13°15'01" - 11°15'00.00" = 2°00'01"
2°00'01" - 1°59'12" = 0°0'49" (d.f.e.s.)

13°15'01" - 13°11'25" = 0°03'36" (d.f.e.s.)

13°11'25" - 11°15'00.00" = 1°56'25"
1°59'12" - 1°56'25" = 0°2'47" (d.f.e.s.)





Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

transit VE (13°15'01") = natal JU/CU (1°59'11") ≠ natal MO (12°40'17")

13°15'01" - 11°15'00.00" = 2°00'01"
2°00'01" - 1°59'11" = 0°0'50" (d.f.e.s.)

13°15'01" - 12°40'17" = 0°34'44" (permitted orb far exceeded)

12°40'17" - 11°15'00.00" = 1°25'17"
1°59'11" - 1°25'17" = 0°33'54" (permitted orb far exceeded)

Note that natal MO is not included in the planetary picture anymore.




The results of the investigation of the life event "1st marriage" also tend to indicate, as before, that the time of birth 10:54 a.m. is very likely to be correct.

Zachariel

Addendum #2:

Next event: Second marriage (with Marla [Maria Ann] Maples)

20 December 1993
Plaza Hotel, New York City, 40°n45'52.6752"

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marla_Maples

Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

Harmonic 128: 02°48'45.00"
Harmonic 256: 01°24'22.50"

solar SU/VE (3°18'51") = natal VE/CU (0°30'17") = natal MN/ZE (3°18'08") = natal MO (1°56'25")
SU/VE, harmony. A peaceful day. Personal attraction. The loving man (Rules, p. 108)
VE/CU, marital happiness. Pleasant company. (Rules, p. 186)
VE/CU = MO, marital happiness of the woman. (Rules, p. 186)
NO/ZE = MO, to be a candidate. The elected one (female). (Rules, p. 155)

3°18'51" - 2°48'45.00" = 0°30'06"
0°30'17" - 0°30'06" = 0°0'11" (deviation from exact symmetry - d.f.e.s.)

3°18'51" - 3°18'08" = 0°0'43" (d.f.e.s.)

3°18'51" - 1°24'22.50" = 1°54'28.5"
1°56'25" - 1°54'28.5" = 0°01'56.5" (d.f.e.s.)

1°56'25" - 1°24'22.50" = 0°32'2.5"
0°32'2.5" - 0°30'17' = 0°01'05" (d.f.e.s.)





Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

solar SU/VE (3°16'18") = natal VE/CU (0°28'42") = natal MN/ZE (3°18'11")

3°16'18" - 2°48'45.00" = 0°27'33"
0°28'42" - 0°27'33" = 0°01'09" (d.f.e.s.)

3°18'11" - 3°16'18" = 0°01'53" (d.f.e.s.)

Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.: Natal MO is missing in the planetary picture.
Besides 11" vs. 1'9" and 43" vs. 1'53" indicate that the planetary picture at birthtime 10:54 a.m. is much closer to perfect symmetry.




Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Lunar Return (Harmonic 512)
(permitted orb: approx. 15")

Harmonic 1024: 00°21'05.63"
Harmonic 2048: 00°10'32.81"

lunar SU/VE (0°09'04") = natal VE/CU (0°30'17") = natal SU (0°08'58")
SU/VE, harmony. A peaceful day. Personal attraction. The loving man. (Rules, p. 108)
VE/CU, marital happiness. Pleasant company. (Rules, p. 186)
VE/CU = SU, marital happiness to a man. In the company of a loving woman. (Rules, p. 186)

0°30'17" - 0°21'05.63" = 0°09'11.37"
0°09'11.37" - 0°09'04" = 0°00'7.37" (d.f.e.s.)

0°09'11.37" - 0°08'58" = 0°00'13.37" (d.f.e.s.)

0°09'04" - 0°08'58" = 0°00'06" (d.f.e.s.)




Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Lunar Return (Harmonic 512)
(permitted orb: approx. 15")

lunar SU/VE (0°06'34") ≠ natal VE/CU (0°28'42") = natal SU (0°06"27")

0°28'42" - 0°21'05.63" = 0°07'36.37"
0°07"36.37" - 0°06'34" = 0°01'02.37" (d.f.e.s. - beyond the permitted orb)

0°07'36.37" - 0°06'27" = 0°01'09.37" (d.f.e.s. - beyond the permitted orb)

With birthtime 09:51 a.m. "natal VE/CU" is not part of the planetary picture anymore.

Only the planetary picture lunar SU/VE = natal SU fits the permitted orb (07").




Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 1024)
(permitted orb: approx. 8")

Harmonic 2048: 00°10'32.81"
Harmonic 4096: 00°05'16.41"

secundary AR/CU (0°10'53") = natal AR/MA (0°00'22") = natal MO (0°10'57")
AR/CU = AR/MA, marriages. (Rules, p. 52)
MO, female persons. The public. (Rules, p. 123)

0°10'53" - 0°10'32.81" = 0°00'20.19"
0°00'22" - 0°00'20.19" = 0°00'01.81" (d.f.e.s.)

0°10'57" - 0°10'53" = 0°00'04" (d.f.e.s.)

0°10'57" - 0°10'32.81" = 0°00'24.19"
0°00'24.19" - 0°00'22" = 0°00'02.19" (d.f.e.s.)





Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 1024)
(permitted orb: approx. 8")

secundary AR/CU (0°10'51") ≠ natal AR/MA (0°20'44") ≠ natal MO (0°00'55")
0°20'44" - 0°10'32.81" = 0°10'11.19"
0°10'51" - 0°10'11.19" = 0°00'39.81" (d.f.e.s. - beyond the permitted orb)

0°10'51" - 0°10'32.81" = 0°00'18.19"
0°00'55" - 0°00'18.19" = 0°00'36.81" (d.f.e.s. - beyond the permitted orb)

With birthtime 09:51 a.m. the planetay picture that shows up with birthtime 10:54 a.m. vanishes.





Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 128)
(permitted orb: approx. 1')

Harmonic 256: 01°24'22.50"
Harmonic 512: 00°42'11.50"

transit MN/VE (0°29'30") = natal VE/CU (0°30'17") = natal MN/ZE (0°29'23") = SUt/MOn (2°36'29")
MN/VE, pleasant connection. Love unions. Love ties. (Rules, p. 146)
VE/CU, marital happiness (Rules, p. 186)
SO/MO, marriage of male and female (Rules, p. 105)

2°36'29" - 1°24'22.50" - 0°42'11.25" = 0°29'55.25"
0°29'55.25" - 0°29'30" = 0°00'25.25" (d.f.e.s.)

0°30'17" - 0°29'55.25" = 0°00'21.75" (d.f.e.s.)

0°29'55.25" - 0°29'23" = 0°00'32.25" (d.f.e.s.)






Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 128)
(permitted orb: approx. 1')

transit MN/VE (0°29'30") = natal VE/CU (0°28'42") = natal MN/ZE (0°29'26") ≠ SUt/SUn (2°20'55")

2°20'55" (SUt/SUn) - 1°24'22.50" - 0°42'11.25" = 0°14'21.50" (as we can clearly see, SUt/SUn is not included in the planetary picture anymore.)




On the basis of this detailed examination of the life event "second marriage", we can also conclude that the available evidence supports a birth time of 10:54 a.m.


Zachariel

Addendum #3

Life event:
Third marriage (with Melania Trump, born Knauss)

22 January 2005
Bethesda-by-the-Sea Church, Palm Beach, Florida, U.S., 26°n42'40.1256", 80°w02'13.0488"

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melania_Trump

Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

Harmonic 32: 11°15'00.00"
Harmonic 64: 05°37'30.00"

solar SU/CU (7°30'24") = natal MO (13°11'25") = natal CU/KR (18°43'31") = natal AR/SU (7°27'27")
SU/CU, the bridegroom. The married man. (Rules, p. 115)
SU/CU = MO, the bride and the bridegroom. (Rules, p. 115)
CU/KR, distinguished or illustrious society or company (Rules, p. 273)
AR/SU, persons in public life (Rules, p. 41)

7°30'10" - 7°27'27" = 0°02'43" (deviation from exact symmetry - d.f.e.s.)

18°43'31" - 05°37'30.00" = 13°06'01"
13°11'25" - 13°06'01" = 0°05'24" (d.f.e.s.)

18°43'31" - 11°15'00.00" = 7°28'25"
7°30'24" - 7°28'25" = 0°01'59" (d.f.e.s.)

7°28'25" - 7°27'27" = 0°00'58" (d.f.e.s.)

13°11'25" - 05°37'30.00" = 7°33'55"
7°33'55" - 7°30'24" = 0°03'31" (d.f.e.s.)

7°33'55" - 7°27'27" = 0°06'28" (d.f.e.s.)




Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Solar Return (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 10')

solar SU/CU (7°29'10") ≠ natal MO (12°40'17") = natal CU/KR (18°43'30") = natal AR/SU (7°26'12")

18°43'30" - 05°37'30.00" = 13°06'00"
13°06'00" - 12°40'17" = 0°25'43" (d.f.e.s. - far off the permitted orb)
Natal MO is clearly missing in the planetary picture.




Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.


Lunar Return (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

Harmonic 128: 02°48'45.00"
Harmonic 256: 01°24'22.50"


lunar MN/CU (3°04'53") = lunar SU (0°15'10")

3°04'53" - 2°48'45.00" = 0°16'08"
0°16'08" - 0°15'10" = 0°00'58" (d.f.e.s.)






Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Lunar Return (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

lunar MN/CU (3°04'54") ≠ lunar SU (0°13'03")

3°04'54" - 02°48'45.00" = 0°16'09"
0°16'09" - 0°13'03" = 0°03'06" (d.f.e.s. - beyond the permitted orb)
Lunar SU is not part of the planetay picture anymore.





Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

secundary AR/MA (0°31'52") = natal VE/CU (0°30'17")
VE/CU, love marriage. (Rules, p. 186)
AR/MA = CU/x, a wedding ceremony. (Rules, p. 46)

0°31'52" - 0°30'17" = 0°01'35" (d.f.e.s.)






Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Secundary Progressions (Harmonic 64)
(permitted orb: approx. 2')

secundary AR/MA (0°31'02") ≠ natal VE/CU (0°28'42")

0°31'02" - 0°28'42" = 0°02'20" (d.f.e.s. - permitted orb slightly exceeded)





Birthtime: 10:54 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 16')

Harmonic 32: 11°15'00.00"
Harmonic 64: 05°37'30.00"

transit MN/CU (2°51'22") = natal MA/JU (14°06'02") = natal SU/MO (14°03'09")
MN/CU, to prepare the way for marriage. (Rules, p. 153)
MA/JU, joyous happenings. Fortunate accomplishments. (Rules, p. 196)
SU/MO, marriage of male and female. Man and woman (husband and wife) (Rules, p. 105)

14°06'02" - 11°15'00.00" = 2°51'02"
2°51'22" - 2°51'02" = 0°00'20" (d.f.e.s.)

14°03'09" - 11°15'00.00" = 2°48'09"
2°51'22" - 2°48'09" = 0°03'13" (d.f.e.s.)





Birthtime: 09:51 a.m.

Transits (Harmonic 16)
(permitted orb: approx. 8' - 16')

transit MN/CU (2°51'22") = natal MA/JU (14°05'18") ≠ natal SU/MO (13°46'20")

14°05'18" - 11°15'00.00" =2°50'18"
2°51'22" - 2°50'18" = 0°01'04" (d.f.e.s.)

13°46'20" - 11°15'00.00" = 2°31'20"
2°51'22" - 2°31'20" = 0°20'02" (d.f.e.s. - far off the permitted orb)

14°05'18" - 13°46'20" = 0°18'58" (d.f.e.s. - far off the permitted orb)

It is clear that "natal SU/MO" is not part of the planetary picture anymore.




The examination of the event "third marriage" also points to a birth time of 10:54 a.m. It seems to have become clear that the birth time 09:51 a.m. should be discarded.


Zachariel

Thank you again, Zachariel. We can never have enough support and evidence for a birth time.

You are welcome, Therese.