Hi everyone,

In a lesson I've ran today a student asked a good question.
How can we see "massive fame" in the chart of Britney Spears?
I was using Spears' chart as an example chart, but not for the topic of fame.
It's a good question, and not one I was able to answer satisfactorily.

Britney's time is ranked "A" by AstroDatabank, not bad.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spears,_Britney

**
positive / unclear testimony:
- Her L1 is in an angular house and applying by a sinister square to Jupiter.
- Fortuna in end of Placidus 10th is something.
- She has something which is rather similar to Doryphory. The Sun flanked by Jup, Sat and Mars being oriental. On the other side the inner planets Venus and the Moon, being occidental. Mercury is an exception here. Also only Sat is exalted, the rest don't excel by much in essential dignity. And Sun is the sect light - not in favor in a night chart.
- Sun is cnj. Antares, but it has a mixed influence of good and bad (also evident in Spears' case). May contribute to fame as it's still a royal star.

negative / unclear testimony:
- The ruler of her 10th is peregrine, although in the good 5th house.
- Jupiter in the 2nd shows riches, but not necessarily fame.
- NN in the 10th is more indicative of wanting to be famous, but success in such cases isn't guaranteed.
- Calculated the part of fame (AC+Sun-Jup in a night chart), and got 11 deg of Scorp; a 10-deg orb cnj to Jupiter, in the 2nd. Ruler is Mars in hayz, but in the unlucky 12th. Seems okayy to me, not sure if more than that.

Summary:
With the amount of fame (both good and bad) Britney received, her chart doesn't seem to reflect that, all that well.

What do you think?
Anything else you've noticed?

Regarding fame I have no satisfying answer and I don’t know traditional rules for calculating it. When the lights, Sun and/or Moon are angular, especially in the 1st and 10th the person “will be seen”, but this is not the case here.

What I see is that she is a woman who wants to be unique, herself and on her own way. This is shown by exalted Saturn in the 1st house who is also the Almuten of the chart, the most important factor for her desiciones. The ruler of the 10th, Moon, is located in the 5th house, the house of entertainment and art. So there is a connection between job and entertainment. The Moon is connected to Saturn by an applying trine. Saturn, who has very strong dignities by exaltation, tripicity and term is not only Moon’s dispositor but also ruler of the 5th: Job, entertainment and motivation are firmly connected. But fame – I don’t know.

Hello Dima,

I would look at the MC (ego, self, public life) and the AR = Aries Point (the world) and combinations.
The connection points are AR, MC, AS and NN.
In her chart, MC and AS are connected to the world AR. NN is related to many.
So her destiny is known to the world, out in the open.

And with AS, MC, AR the midpoints...
= SU/SA The influence of her father.
= SU/VE -PL -NN Someone loved by many
= ME/VE Artistry and beauty
= MC/NE - AS/NE Uncertain, doubtful, unsteady, unreliable and mysterious, unable to support, unintelligible attitude.

Ouranos

Hi Dima,
Venus as L1 in the 4th is determined to the 10th (career) by opposition. Disposited by an Exalted Saturn who is in an overcoming square to her from the 1st would indicate the possibility of a distinguished career.

It's a night chart with the Moon ruling the MC out of sect in the 5th of entertainment also disposited by exalted Saturn in the 1st and she's applying to a trine with him while waxing so nearly all his malice is removed. Saturn is also square the Sun...a good, strong Saturn connected to both lights and the 10th can raise a person to great heights.

janegca wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:02 am Venus as L1 in the 4th is determined to the 10th (career) by opposition.

Hi janegca,

Can you explain what you mean by "determined to the 10th by opposition"? I've seen this "determined by opposition" expression used before but don't understand what it means. (My guess is it has something to do with Capricorn in H4 being the "natural" sign of H10 [career], but I'm just guessing.)

Thanks for any help.

--stargeezer

Jane hi,
Great insights!

Saturn's role does seem vital. It disposits a lot of important stuff.
Also it's in MR with L1 Venus! (also shows her co-dependant relationship with her pops)
My only problem is that Saturn rules the 4th and 5th (not public houses).
Also that exalted Saturn is Exalted - praised and overestimated by others.
I remember that Oner Doser and other astrologers sometimes look at the exalted ruler of a house, that would be the exalted ruler of the 1st.

That's the thing, that a connection to the 10th (fame, recognition) is somehow missing for me in her chart.
--
"determined to the 10th (career) by opposition"
What do you mean? I don't recall seeing such a technical definition before.
Also if you have a source, it would be nice.

Moon is in sect as Britney is a night birth.
Saturn isn't square Sun, but the Sun is in an applying sextile to Saturn (soon).

---------------------

Ouranos:
Aries Point = The World
Interesting.
Uranian?
Hamburg School?

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Read all the rest, thanks for replying.

stargeezer wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:12 pm Can you explain what you mean by "determined to the 10th by opposition"? I've seen this "determined by opposition" expression used before but don't understand what it means. (My guess is it has something to do with Capricorn in H4 being the "natural" sign of H10 [career], but I'm just guessing.)

Hi stargeezer ...
A planet has some influence in any place ('house') that it opposes, trines, squares, sextiles or is in. So, for example, Venus in Spears chart is at 25 Capricorn in the Placidus 4th and influences the other Placidus houses as follows:

• the 10th as she sends her opposition to 25 Cancer, which falls in the 10th
• the 1st and 7th as she sends her squares to 25 Libra in the 1st and 25 Aries in the 7th
• the 8th and 12th as she sends her trines to 25 Taurus in the 8th and 25 Virgo in the 12th
• the 2nd and 6th as she sends her sextiles to 25 Scorpio in the 2nd and 25 Pisces in the 6th

This comes partly from Paulus of Alexandria, who says a planet not in aspect to a house has 'nothing to do with the year' when describing profections. The specific language of saying a planet can be 'determined' to a house by aspect (or rulership, position, or other means) comes from Morinus.

The determination is not related to 'natural' house order used in modern astrology; although Valens (in book 9) does say that a sign's house position in the Thema Mundi carries an imprint of that house wherever it is found; he used Sagittarius on the 6th and Gemini on the 12th in the Thema Mundi (which has Cancer on the 1st, Aries on the 10th) to indicate Sagittarius always connects the possibility of injury to whichever house it occupies (in Spears chart, that would be the 3rd, so she might have an injury while on a short trip). He said the same inferences can be made using all the sign/Thema Mundi house connections.

Hope that's of some use.

Dima Gur wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:23 pm Saturn's role does seem vital. It disposits a lot of important stuff.
Also it's in MR with L1 Venus! (also shows her co-dependant relationship with her pops)
My only problem is that Saturn rules the 4th and 5th (not public houses).
Also that exalted Saturn is Exalted - praised and overestimated by others.
I remember that Oner Doser and other astrologers sometimes look at the exalted ruler of a house, that would be the exalted ruler of the 1st.

That's the thing, that a connection to the 10th (fame, recognition) is somehow missing for me in her chart.

Hi Dima,

Saturn in the 1st at 19 LIbra sends his square to the 4th and 10th and he's disposited by Venus in the 4th who sends her opposition to the 10th so he does have determinations for the career. The 'fame' and 'recognition' can be seen from the connections to the lights; both of which give fame; both are applying to Saturn with the Moon ruling the 10th and Saturn itself is 51° from the Sun, moving into his own light (a planet is strongest when rising 60° from the Sun). So this Saturn is exalted, angular, and strong in itself.

Dima Gur wrote: "determined to the 10th (career) by opposition"
What do you mean? I don't recall seeing such a technical definition before.
Also if you have a source, it would be nice.

Please see my response to stargeezer; essentially, the specific language of 'determination' is from Morinus, but the idea can also be found in Paulus.

Dima Gur wrote: Moon is in sect as Britney is a night birth.
Saturn isn't square Sun, but the Sun is in an applying sextile to Saturn (soon).

The Moon is below the earth, on the same side of the horizon as the Sun, so she is on the 'daylight' side of the chart and out of sect. If she was above the horizon, in the hemisphere opposite the Sun, she would be in sect. You're right about the Sun/Saturn aspect, it's a sextile, not square; must have had Saturn squaring the 4th and 10th on my mind.

Spears chart looks like a good example of how a number of factors can cooperate to produce a rise in life.

janegca wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:24 pm ...
A planet has some influence in any place ('house') that it opposes, trines, squares, sextiles or is in. So, for example, Venus in Spears chart is at 25 Capricorn in the Placidus 4th and influences the other Placidus houses as follows:

• the 10th as she sends her opposition to 25 Cancer, which falls in the 10th
• the 1st and 7th as she sends her squares to 25 Libra in the 1st and 25 Aries in the 7th
• the 8th and 12th as she sends her trines to 25 Taurus in the 8th and 25 Virgo in the 12th
• the 2nd and 6th as she sends her sextiles to 25 Scorpio in the 2nd and 25 Pisces in the 6th

Okay, I get that. But since Venus is in H4, opposing H10, shouldn't that work against the idea of her having a successful career?

janegca wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:24 pm
This comes partly from Paulus of Alexandria, who says a planet not in aspect to a house has 'nothing to do with the year' when describing profections. The specific language of saying a planet can be 'determined' to a house by aspect (or rulership, position, or other means) comes from Morinus.

The determination is not related to 'natural' house order used in modern astrology; although Valens (in book 9) does say that a sign's house position in the Thema Mundi carries an imprint of that house wherever it is found; he used Sagittarius on the 6th and Gemini on the 12th in the Thema Mundi (which has Cancer on the 1st, Aries on the 10th) to indicate Sagittarius always connects the possibility of injury to whichever house it occupies (in Spears chart, that would be the 3rd, so she might have an injury while on a short trip). He said the same inferences can be made using all the sign/Thema Mundi house connections.

Hope that's of some use.

Yes, definitely and thanks! I still don't get how the opposition to H10 would be pro-career, though.

--stargeezer

Dima,

Fame can be defined as "the state of being widely known or recognized; renown; celebrity." How many people know you. A quantity.

Astrology can best describe the influence of someone like the analysis done by Jane. And ancient astrologers, with several techniques like rising and setting coupled with Fixed stars and the many other considerations, were very good at predicting fame from birth. I think of Louis XIV as an example. A quality.

Uranian astrology tells us that
AR (Aries Point) = the world
NN = connections
Don't forget that the Nodes are related to the Moon where the Moon’s orbit intersects the plane of the ecliptic.
So you find the Moon, the Sun and the Earth involved at this focal point.

As a general guideline, just look at the planets at the Vernal Points in a chart, which are 0 Cardinal and 15 Fixed.
You will start to get an idea of what this person is known for.
Madonna - Mars 15 Taurus
Oprah Winfrey - AS Cap - ME Aqu

Adding the midpoints will provide additionnal information.
Tom Cruise
VE/MC = AR.
To be popular. To be attractive.
Bill Gates
AS/UR = AR
Science and technology environment.

Ouranos

stargeezer wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:37 pm I still don't get how the opposition to H10 would be pro-career, though.

It will not. In my opinion different matters are mixed together here with a grain of postmodern astrology.

I feel more comfortable to accept for now that I don‘t know how the fame of Britney Spears is shown.

Personnaly, I am more comfortable reading how (quality) than how much (quantity).
And how about the ones who become famous after they die?