Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hello everybody.

A question.

I am preparing some lecture notes on traditional astrology for my students and I came to the subject of planetary relationships. I was thinking of putting out an exhaustive list of how a planet relates to another:-

1. Relating by seeing - Aspects (obviously!!!) and receptions.

2. Relating by having equal say/stature/power - antiscions

3. Relating by hearing - contra-antiscions

4. Relating by touching - like engirding (in the signs ruled by one planet)

5. Relating by rulerships - dispositorships.

6. Relating through a third agent/planet - translation and collection of light

7. Special relationships e.g. noddings of the moon.

I am really tempted to leave the list to only 7 - the mystical number but have I missed anything? Comments?

hello
I believe there is also another relationship that is by the equal time of ascention of the signs... I believe is aries and pisces, taurus and aquarius and so on...

but I don?t know if this is too important for students, to make such a list
Y

That would be covered by contra-antiscia. There's nothing else that I can think of.

Thanx a million, Deb and Yuzuru!

I like the way you've organized this material, would like to see an article organized thusly, if it occurs to you. hint, hint!

Granny

May I ever so politely suggest one change? I don't know if you can solidly relate the senses to specific kinds of contacts between planets. If some of these make sense to you that's fine, but I wouldn't bring them into an introductory lesson for students with no experience in astrology. I've never heard any traditional astrologer equate the senses with the different kinds of contacts either. So, if I were doing a class I'd leave them out. But that's just my personal opinion.

To MarkF:-

Thanx for the comments. I assure you that the class I am planning to deliver is for adavanced students (my students who have gone through intro modern astrology classes, intro horary classes and intro traditional ancient astrology classes).

For your comments:-

I've never heard any traditional astrologer equate the senses with the different kinds of contacts either.

Please refer to the following articles that explain the senses metaphor to the planetary relationships:-

1) http://home.online.no/~stebi/anintro.htm, you'll have to click on the Living Signs to get further articles (articles given by Steven Birchfield).

2) Curits Manwaring http://www.zodiac-x-files.com put out an article on this which I think where Steven Birchfield took his materials from but Curtis has removed it from his site.

According to these people, they took (or imply - I don't know), their materials from Vettius Valens' Anthology.

Curtis Manwaring is an engineer and so his articles are quite structured which I like very much (me being an engineer myself!). And, my students are engineers (one chemical, one civil), one geneticist and one economist (among others) - the questions they ask can be daunting to say the least! So I have to be really careful with my notes and they appreciate structures most of all.

Al-Biruni mentions the Persian/Arab and Hindu schema of planetary friendships. The former I feel is corrupt as it simply makes no sense to me, with its often incongruous form of "seeking" and "offering" friendships.
However the Hindu table of friendships and enmities works very nicely, even when expanded to include the accidental friends that lie in the same half of the chart, and accidental enemies that lie in the opposite one. I personally find that the amity/enmity concept can really help with tricky situations, when all else fails, and is always handy to be borne in mind.

Also bear in mind that planets of the same sect help each other more readily than those of the other sect.

And finally a little more obscurely, would spear-carriers need to be included for the sake of completeness. This relationship does dignify the Lights afterall.

Just came to me -

Dustoria: when a planet occupies a sign relative to a Light's current sign, that is the same as the relationship between the Light's own sign and the planet's own sign. For instance, when Mercury is in the second or eleventh sign from the sun, just as virgo and gemini are two and eleven signs from leo.

astrojin wrote:To MarkF:-

1) http://home.online.no/~stebi/anintro.htm, you'll have to click on the Living Signs to get further articles (articles given by Steven Birchfield).

2) Curits Manwaring http://www.zodiac-x-files.com put out an article on this which I think where Steven Birchfield took his materials from but Curtis has removed it from his site.

According to these people, they took (or imply - I don't know), their materials from Vettius Valens' Anthology.

Curtis Manwaring is an engineer and so his articles are quite structured which I like very much (me being an engineer myself!). And, my students are engineers (one chemical, one civil), one geneticist and one economist (among others) - the questions they ask can be daunting to say the least! So I have to be really careful with my notes and they appreciate structures most of all.

Thanks for the complements. Steven has cited me, though I think he may have forgotten to cite me in a few spots. I recently moved my work over to astrology-x-files.com, and the stuff that I wrote in "Secrets of the Lost Horoscope X-Files" was not published to the web for public viewing, but was part of an e-book / application available for download. I took the parts of that book that I considererd the most accurate and put them up in the x-files section of my site. The idea of mapping the 5 senses to different functions of the zodiac / cosmic animal is something I worked out after listening to Robert Schmidt's lectures (which he indirectly alluded to, but did not specifically state): he was cited in several places in that work as well. I can put it back up for you if you wish, but I'll warn you that it is not the current state of my thinking on the subject, nor does it agree that well with what Schmidt currently thinks. The chapter on the Rules of Evidence (ch 7) with my example of Bush's chart is misleading because it was oversimplified. I created a testimony wizard based on this in Delphic Oracle v 1.0 and I gave this to Robert Schmidt, but he didn't like it and asked me to remove the testimony wizard, and I did. At some point when I have corrected it to accurately reflect his point of view, it will come back, but it will be part of the topical approach.

Al-Habashi said:-

Dustoria: when a planet occupies a sign relative to a Light's current sign, that is the same as the relationship between the Light's own sign and the planet's own sign. For instance, when Mercury is in the second or eleventh sign from the sun, just as virgo and gemini are two and eleven signs from leo.

Oh yes. I did not want to include this because:-
1) As far as I know, only Ptolemy (among the ancient authors) who introduced this (in his Tetrabiblos) which is referred to as Proper Face. The Arabs must have taken this and turned it into Dustoria (in some form or manner).
2) I cannot give a specific example as to how this works because it is just a specific form of aspecting. It is very difficult to distinguish this form of aspecting against the usual form of aspecting when no natural relation with the lights exist.

Al-Biruni mentions the Persian/Arab and Hindu schema of planetary friendships. The former I feel is corrupt as it simply makes no sense to me, with its often incongruous form of "seeking" and "offering" friendships.

Oh yes, the friendship/enmity among planets of the Persian/Arab and Hindu schema. The universal/accidental relationship between planets (friendship/enmity) are famous among the Vedic practitioners and I feel it should stay that way. Techniques in Vedic should remain in Vedic practice (at least that's how I think it should be). I don't mean that we should not use both. We may want to use both separately to enhance our delineation but I strongly feel that the techniques established in Vedic Astrology should not be used in Western and vice versa. I myself use Vedic astrolgy but I use them in tandem with Traditional Western but I do not mix the techniques. The Yogas of Vedic Astrology are really good if use with caution.

In my practice of Western Traditional natal and horary, I use reception, inverse reception, mutual reception and inverse mutual reception for establishing friendships and enmities among planets.

And finally a little more obscurely, would spear-carriers need to be included for the sake of completeness. This relationship does dignify the Lights afterall.

Definitely! I did include spear and shield bearers in my traditional astrology class under special relationship especially when discussing Rank of Fame and the Doryphory. I also include paran relationship among planets and fixed stars under special relationship when discussing effects of fixed stars in natal astrology (Ulugh Beg and Bernadette Brady's method).

To Zoidsoft:-

I can put it back up for you if you wish, but I'll warn you that it is not the current state of my thinking on the subject, nor does it agree that well with what Schmidt currently thinks. The chapter on the Rules of Evidence (ch 7) with my example of Bush's chart is misleading because it was oversimplified. I created a testimony wizard based on this in Delphic Oracle v 1.0 and I gave this to Robert Schmidt, but he didn't like it and asked me to remove the testimony wizard, and I did. At some point when I have corrected it to accurately reflect his point of view, it will come back, but it will be part of the topical approach.

Have you discarded Rules of Evidence method altogether or modified it? What do you mean by Topical approach. When is this System of Hermes going to be released?

Thank you all

(PS: Sorry for the late reply. I have been so busy lately. Just had no time to even read through the forum!)

astrojin wrote:Al-Habashi said:-
Definitely! I did include spear and shield bearers in my traditional astrology class under special relationship especially when discussing Rank of Fame and the Doryphory. I also include paran relationship among planets and fixed stars under special relationship when discussing effects of fixed stars in natal astrology (Ulugh Beg and Bernadette Brady's method).

Schmidt says that spear bearing has to do with protection of the lights against maltreatment. He gave an example of how some people can get away with alot, but others try to do the same and they will not get the respect... Since he says that the lights have to do with party affiliation, I'd say it also has alot to do with protecting the agenda that the sect in power will pursue (say for instance how the democrats in America are letting the republicans slip alot of things through without a fight), or if the light that is protected is not in power; this may be an indication that the agenda that will be pursued will always have a thorn in it's side, because the sect out of power cannot be extinguished (this would be spear bearing out of sect as referred to in the original translations).

To Zoidsoft:-

Have you discarded Rules of Evidence method altogether or modified it? What do you mean by Topical approach. When is this System of Hermes going to be released?

Topics such as marriage, children, etc can be looked at individually from three different perspectives (zodiacal, planetary and horizontal realms). Schmidt has modified his thinking on the rules of evidence so my worked out example is confusing because it arrives at the right conclusion through incorrect means.

I'd say at the very latest he has to come out with it by Aug 2006, otherwise the PHASE Conclave will not get off the ground, but Bill Johnston has said that the first text of the Astrologers Edition should be out by April.