Hi all,

In the tradition, Lilly likes to stimulate my Virgo Sun by making things wonderfully complicated, in that in a relationship horary, we are not only to consider the rulers of the East and West angles for our significators, but also the Sun and Venus for the man and the woman respectively, not to mention including the Moon as significant to the querent.

It would seem that this consideration has somewhat fallen out of favour, I hardly see it used, but as a student with only a wee amount of knowledge as yet, I wish to explore this consideration thoroughly, before dismissing it out of hand, lest I should have large holes in my future wisdom.

I would seek to complicate matters even further by putting forward the necessary debate about this consideration in reference to homosexuality. A not uncommon practice, perhaps more common than would seem readily apparent, that we can no longer quietly sweep under the carpet as it probably was in Lilly's day.

According to Frawley, the Sun in a relationship chart, refer's to animal, primitive man, the raw biological urge to penetrate and to conquer. Venus, is the animal, primitive woman, and her biological urge to surrender and be ravished.

So if in a regular, heterosexual relationship chart, we find the Sun and Venus mutually receiving each other by exaltation, but the general significators without any strong reception, then the man and woman seek the wild abandons of orgasmic lust with each other, but it isn't material for a longstanding co-habitual relationship. On the other hand, if the general significators are positively mutually received, but the Sun and Venus have little interest in each other, then they get along well, make a good team, but the relationship is hardly sexually invigorating, a marriage of convienience perhaps.

What, however, of homosexual concerns?

I would imagine that many in this case, would seek to determine who takes the role of leadership in the relationship, and attribute the Sun and Venus accordingly. I would disagree with this, because if the Sun and Venus refer to raw, primitive sexual urges in a purely physical, carnal way, then no matter how effeminate certain homosexuals may be, they are still not equipped with a vagina and a set of ovaries!

Would it not be more appropriate in the case of an affair between two males, to look to the Sun and Mars, as a substitue for Venus, or in the case of lesbianism, to look to Venus and the Moon, in substitution of the Sun?

In any relationship between two people, either professional, familial, sexual or whatever, there will always be one more assertive, more imbued with the qualities of leadership than the other. In the case of a homosexual relation it would seem to make sense, in the case of two males, to give the natural leader the Sun, and his mate to Mars, and not to Venus. In the case of two women, I would be inclined attribute the leader to the Moon, not the Sun, and the other to Venus.

This is how I would feel inclined to do it because it seems symbolically correct.

If you were exploring a homosexual relation in horary, and you were using the Sun and Venus as co significators for one and the other, what would be your justification for doing so?

Frawley, in his Horary Textbook, only makes mention of homosexuality in reference to determining whether or not a persons partner may be homosexual, but he seems to sidestep the issue of homosexuality itself.

Draco

I've wondered about this one too. I don't use the secondary rulers of Mars, the Sun and Venus as Lilly suggests. Remember to read all of Lilly and not just his list of rules that come at the beginning of each chapter. If you look at his examples, he frequently doesn't follow his own rules. You can't come at a chart with a list of rules and then apply them, other than to find out the main house rulers concerned. Each chart is unique and can't be reduced down to a checklist. Again, read Lilly's examples of how he does it. His rules make you think and to explore, not to restrict. Lilly does say to use Venus for the woman and Mars for the man, but I don't think he makes much use of that in his examples.

About same sex relations, I haven't used anything other than the 1st and 7th house rulers and the Moon come into play in my charts. That's not to say that they don't, just that I haven't used them in mine.

I asked John Frawley about this and he says that the ancients gave lots of indicators of same-sex attraction but that he doesn't use them. I think he said that they all came down to "whether a man could light a match on his chin stubble", i.e., how macho he was.

There does seem to be a somewhat unhealthy interest by those in the straight community in trying to come up with a system to tell who's interested in same-sex relations. I've learned to not get too concerned about all of this. As far as astrology goes, the best advice I've heard on this is to conclude that certain kinds of information are not going to be in someone's chart. No one says that you can look at a chart and see if the person is a man or woman, white, black or Asian. Given that, why would sexual preference be seen in a chart?

Thanks for responding.

I've wondered about this one too. I don't use the secondary rulers of Mars, the Sun and Venus as Lilly suggests.

I've noticed that few do. I was just interested in exploring this, because I want to find out if I can derive benefit from it before I dismiss it. The thing is, if I am to use it, then I would just be uncomfortable using the Sun / Venus rule for a homosexual relation, because it would just feel symbolically incorrect to me.

If you look at his examples, he frequently doesn't follow his own rules.

As I'm coming to notice, and other's have mentioned this too. I think it comes down to horary, indeed astrology, being an art form, rather than a set of cast iron rules, we have a set of guidelines that should be followed in general but can be tweaked and moulded if needs be according to the individual chart, all of course tempered by a dash of common sense.

At my stage, I'm not terribly experienced, but I am trying out all sorts of different techniques and perspectives in order to get a feel for that which I find workable and that which I don't.

I asked John Frawley about this and he says that the ancients gave lots of indicators of same-sex attraction but that he doesn't use them.

I did in fact wonder when sending this thread if anyone could come up with any examples of any classical texts which concern same sex attraction. I would have imagined that they would have referenced same sex attraction somewhere.

There does seem to be a somewhat unhealthy interest by those in the straight community in trying to come up with a system to tell who's interested in same-sex relations.

Indeed. Particularly in natal astrology, in the modern arena especially, much to my eternal annoyance. It's a shame none of them are so eager to come up with methods for how heterosexual inclinations can be defined in the nativity. The two main culprits that they usually descend upon are Venus and Uranus, and when you have a good think about the particular symbolism of these two planets, it's apparent that such delineations are rooted in ignorance and prejudice. It stems from a need to designate an 'us' and 'them', that they may curl up safely in the assurance that they could never have been, or be so perverse because their chart say's so.

No one says that you can look at a chart and see if the person is a man or woman, white, black or Asian. Given that, why would sexual preference be seen in a chart?

Precisely. This is the argument I have used in other forums where they have been discussing how to identify homosexual tendancies in the natal. I ask how heterosexual mores can be defined, which inevitably opens up a can of worms about how it can't be found because it's 'normal'.

Having said all this, I do think that symbols of homosexuality can indeed be found within astrology, just not in nativities, which reveal to us all our potentials. The symbols for the Air signs I think are interesting.

While I do find it a completely pointless task to try and determine sexual mores in the nativity, I do think it could be interesting to attribute general significators for each partner in a horary. It's just if I am to try and experiment with the Sun and Venus for man and woman, I find this inappropriate for the case of two same sex individuals, so I would experiment with Sun and Mars, and Moon and Venus, just out of interest and see where it leads me.

I would actually be interested if anyone has any quotes from any classical texts concerning same sex attraction. Doubtless they would be more interesting that what modern astrologer's espouse about Uranus.

Draco