Hi all,

If we were to determine the appropriate house for the spirits of the dead, then it occurs to me that there are perhaps three possible candidates.

First, there is the fourth, as it is the house of ancestors, the place of the grave, that which is buried and belongs to history, the place of all that has gone before.

Second, there is the eighth, as of course this is the house of death itself, the house of anxiety and fear, and few people would not be perturbed when experiencing the presence of a ghost! There is a sense of the fatalistic and ominous about the eighth, so perhaps the spirits of the dead could be seen here also.

Third, there is the twelfth, if a person was to inquire 'Is my house haunted?', then perhaps it would be worthwhile to look at the twelfth, for 'hidden enemies', the twelfth being the house of isolation and confinement brings the idea of an earth bound spirit, lost in a realm where it does not belong.

In the general sense, I would imagine that the most appropriate place for the spirits of the dead in general would be the fourth, but the twelfth and the eighth would seem to have their place, depending on the context of that which is being investigated in the given chart.

What do you think? Which house is most appropriate for the spirits of the dead?

Draco

The first thing I'd want to know is what's the question? If you want to ask some spirit for advice, I'd look to the 9th house. If you were being plagued by a spirit, I'd look to the 12th or maybe the 8th house. I've heard it said, maybe it was by Bonatti, that someone born with Mars in the 9th house has the power to command spirits, or something like that. I don't see the 4th house connection there to spirits in general, perhaps not even if it's the spirit of one's ancestors.

My thoughts:-

4th House:-

Roots and resting place, hence, home you come from and home you're going to build. Your father and endings. Interesting! Endings as of manner of endings (outcome) but usually places of endings/restings referred to as prisons as one of the examples given by Bonatti, plus buried things which includes dead people (the skeletons, those decayed physical bodies not their spirits!), graves, treasures, etc. The manner of endings (i.e. outcome) is used extensively in derived houses e.g. "How is this relationship going to end?", 1st = querent, 7th, spouse/partner, 4th of 7th = 10th = outcome/ending of relationship. I don't think I would associate 4th house to spirits, benign or malign (probably their resting place...)


8th house

House of death (as agreed by many traditional and modern astrologers) and manner of death (as depicted in Bonatti's Liber astronomiae), inheritance (2nd of 7th) and ancestors (as of ancestry not their spirits). One whose profession's signifier is also strongly connected to ruler of 8th house, may be grave diggers or undertakers (dealing directly with death) or historian (dealing with ancestry) or even myth makers (those invlolve in mythology, the alternative form of history...)


12th house

House of spirits but most probably malign spirits. This is the place to go for to check for bewitchment (as Lilly showed in his CA). Remember that in those times, charms/bewitchment are ALWAYS considered the work of lower spirits (demons/devils, etc.) whether the evils are initiated by the devils himself or by his associates (other humans who intend harm to the native thru witchcraft).

In Greek astrology, the 12th is named house of evil spirits and (surprise!) the 11th, the house of good spirits. For more details, refer to Deborah's article/book on the house meanings... (I have never had the need to associate 11th to spirits, so I am not sure as to how to use this info in horary).

9th house

The 9th is the house of religion, prophecy, intuition, divination, etc. related to God (as probably the highest form of spirit...).

Hi again,

The first thing I'd want to know is what's the question?

I never had a particular question in mind right now. However, in the past I have asked questions such as, 'Did we see a ghost?', 'Is the spirit of my dead brother in visitation of this house?', and 'Are spiritualist mediums really obtaining messages from the spirits of the dead?'.

For example, in the question about the spirit of my brother, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to count the eight from the third, because I am not talking about his death but his spirit, which is quite different.

I don't see the 4th house connection there to spirits in general, perhaps not even if it's the spirit of one's ancestors.

Really? I find this suprising because this is the first place I would look. For example, I used to attend mediumship circles, and the first time I went to one, I was extremely skeptical, until I received an astounding message myself from a perfect stranger, who could only possibly have been from my brother, unless mediumship is not some form of communication with the deceased and is perhaps some sort of telepathy or ESP instead. Later on, I began relating messages to people myself, and I still have no idea where this information was coming from. I would get flashes of imagery in my minds eye, and when I described what I was seeing, it was nearly always imagery that the sitter could relate to very personally as a message from a dead relative. I do not go with the spiritualist belief however that these notions are given by the spirits of the dead, I keep an open mind as to what the nature of this mystery is.

Now, if I was to ask the question, 'Are messages really transmitted to a medium via the dead'. The for 'the dead', I couldn't help but look to the fourth, because it is the place of ancestors, the grave, and being the end of matters, it is all that which has already 'passed over'.

It's true what Astrojin has said about the 11th and 12th for good spirits and bad spirits.

So there is fourth, eighth, ninth, eleventh and twelfth. I suppose it depends on the context of that which is being explored.

If the eighth is death, then the first from the eighth, would symbolise the life that proceeds death, so perhaps the ninth is the most significant?

I still feel that as the fourth is the place of the ancestors, that there is a place for spirits here too, albeit of a different class.

Draco

You know, I really love this kind of question because it makes us all think and it's not yet another "He loves me, he loves me not" question. I'm tired of even my own relationship questions.

My choice for your question would be the 9th house, as you're getting information from a higher source. I agree with what Astrojin says about the 4th house. First of all, out of all of your relatives it's connection is with the father not with the brother. But most of all, it's connection with death is tenuous. In general the 4th house is more about things that are hidden, either in the earth like a dead body or like gold in the earth before it's discovered. I'd look at Deb's great resources on this site as to the nature of the houses. Once you get them understood at their abstract level, then you can apply them to situations that are not specified in any book.

Does anybody else have suggestions?

Hi
[quote]My choice for your question would be the 9th house, as you're getting information from a higher source.'


If the spirit in question is of higher realms, the 9th house would be right but I'm not sure about the spirits of dead relatives because you don't get spiritually enlightened or become evolved suddenly by virtue of being dead; you're as wise as with/witout having a body; you'd be at the same point on your spiritual evolution.
The 12th house will get my vote if it can cover the spirits of non-malign nature because it generally concerns the hidden and the unknown.

You know, I really love this kind of question because it makes us all think and it's not yet another "He loves me, he loves me not" question. I'm tired of even my own relationship questions.

Ha, ha. Yes, I know what you mean, me too.

My choice for your question would be the 9th house, as you're getting information from a higher source.

I see what you mean, this would seem to make sense.

However, I also agree with doublegem:

If the spirit in question is of higher realms, the 9th house would be right but I'm not sure about the spirits of dead relatives because you don't get spiritually enlightened or become evolved suddenly by virtue of being dead; you're as wise as with/witout having a body; you'd be at the same point on your spiritual evolution.

The things is, when we are speaking of 'spirits' this is a pretty huge category. I suppose the relevant house depends upon the nature of the spirit. For example, if we are considering angels or 'spirit guides', then they would seem appropriate to the ninth. If, however, we a considering the spirit of grandmother, or the ghost which is haunting our house, I'm not sure if the same house is appropriate.

Draco

okay, I'm gonna disagree with a point here. if you were to ask simply is my (dead)brother here with us or haunting us, etc. I'd use 3, house of siblings to inquire, because a sibling is not the same as anyone in general and for dead spouse I'd use 7, IF however the question is Am I being haunted? who is haunting me? etc. I'd look to see what planets fall in the eighth and what people those planets might signify. if no planets in the 8th I'd say the answer to your question was no dead person is haunting you. (then I'd look to 12th to see if a secret enemy might be causeing me issues)

I get odd messages from a late ex every now and then, through odd sources, not first hand usually. so I've kinda been experimenting with this one.

Granny.

In terms of one particular form of enquiry in this nature, historically speaking, making enquiries of people who are dead (as opposed to about people who are dead) is known as necromancy. It was a popular form of divination during certain periods, e.g. Babylonian times or the Roman Republic. The Old Testament mentions it at times. Lilly and Al Biruni give the rulership of necromancy to Mercury. Since it is a form of divination, I would say it belongs in the 9th house.

To refer to the House Rulership Index in Deb's excellent book 'The Houses Temples of the Sky', the spirits of the dead are asigned to the 4th.

To refer to the House Rulership Index in Deb's excellent book 'The Houses Temples of the Sky', the spirits of the dead are asigned to the 4th.

Ahh. So someone agrees with my original notion that the fourth can be considered as appropriate for the spirits of the dead. Temples of the Sky definately has to be my next book!

if you were to ask simply is my (dead)brother here with us or haunting us, etc. I'd use 3, house of siblings to inquire, because a sibling is not the same as anyone in general and for dead spouse I'd use 7

This is a good point actually, but trust a Virgo to seek to complicate things! Actually though, I wasn't inquiring about any one dead person in particular, but about the spirit's of the deceased in a general sense, the occupants of 'the other side' and in which house they would be most appropriately represented, and I couldn't help thinking the fourth.

Thanks all for your input.

Draco

[quote] Temples of the Sky definately has to be my next book!

Yes it's one of the best Astrology books, which anyone interested in Astrology should read!