Skyscript Astrology Forum

I spent my summer vacation with Jean Baptiste Morin and I?m still hanging around with him this fall. A lot of what he says can be found elsewhere, but this is one technique that I think deserves some exploration. Morin tells us that a planet in a house is more influential than the planet that rules that house. OK fair enough. He also tells us:

?And any house also has the same meaning as the one opposite to it by dint of the opposition itself, but only accidentally ? for Mars in the second threatens death, and Jupiter in the eighth is an indication of money; ?? ? Astrologia Gallica, Book 21, page 61, Baldwin translation AFA 1974.

If anyone has the Lucy Little translation see page 57.

I found this intriguing because it indicates that a planet in the first tells us about the marriage, and a planet in the 11th tells us about children, and so on. Note this does not apply to the rulers of the houses, if they are posited elsewhere. If Mars rules 2 but is in 4 and no planet occupies 2, Mars does not tell us about 8th house matters. So I went through a book of charts looking for examples, but I had a difficult time. It seems that opposite houses tend to tell us about something public and something private. For example a planet in 10 might tell us about the family or ancestry, but it is difficult to demonstrate the technique in a celebrity?s chart, unless you know them well. The 9th may well be descriptive of their religious beliefs taken from the public record, but what do we know of the siblings that will help us validate or refute this method? I wanted some kind of confirmation and the charts I skimmed would neither confirm nor deny this assertion ? except one.

I recalled my old standby ? George S Patton jr and hit the bull?s-eye. Pattons? data is:

Nov 11, 1885 NS
6:38 PM PST + 8 hours
San Marino, California
34 N 7? 17?
118 W 6?20?
20 Gemini 26 rises

I?ve enjoyed working with Patton?s chart since it lacks essential dignity; yet, he is a famous man with notable accomplishments. He was a notoriously complex man whose contemporaries loved or hated him, but rarely understood him. There are indications of fame (notoriety?) in the chart. The Royal Star Formalhaut is on the MC and Robson says that gives ?Great and lasting honors.? The 10th house, however has 0 Pisces on the cusp (give this as an anonymous chart to a new age astrologer and ask him to figure out the career with Pisces on the MC and see if ?soldier? ever crosses his mind), and the ruler of the MC is Jupiter in Virgo (detriment). So Formalhaut indicates lasting honor, but as what? Mars, the most likely candidate to indicate a soldier opposes the MC. However if we use Morin?s technique things are a bit clearer.

Mars in analytical Virgo does describe a military tactician pretty well. Jupiter also is located in the 4th house in Virgo, and the greater benefic in the 10th does give success, but in detriment the success either doesn?t last or comes with difficulties. This describes Patton?s career to a ?T.? We also might want to make something of Venus, lady of the geniture being disposed of by Mars by exaltation and the fact that she trines Mars and sextiles the MC. Progressed Venus hits his MC, the sign of her exaltation, at the time of his greatest military success in WWII. Mars in 4 also describes Patton?s ancestry as the military exploits of the Pattons date back at least as far as the American Revolution.

This is one example, an anecdote really. Are there others? I hope others will take some time to find examples and post them. I haven?t seen this technique used by any traditional astrologers, although Bob Corre probably uses it. If there are examples of horrific failures using this technique let?s post them, too. Please post the data so we can check the whole chart.

Thanks,

Tom

You know that the polarities are indisputable.... my teaching method gives 3 main subjects, and six general issues....
but anyway, about the Mars ruling the second and being in the 4th thing, well, yes and no.... because if Mars in the 4th is connected to the 8th in any way it will give more info about "values".... it's unconnected only if it's truly "unconnected" by aspects. So suppose Venus (ruling the 8th) squares, let's say the Moon in the chart and the Moon aspects Mars... well, you've got your connection.....
Lainie

In an effort to be more clear I should have noted possible exeptions or extenuating circumstances, but I didn't in order to keep things simple. One of the difficulties in reading Morin is that he includes exceptions or extenuating circumstances and the descriptions of exceptions, etc., can swallow up the point. I wished to avoid this stylistic difficulty in order to concentrate on his idea. Furthermore a full discussion involves resolving an apparent contradiction by Morinus, which may be partly due to translation or it may be a simple glitch, but in order to get all these things on the record I would have been quoting quite a bit more than I wished to type, and, in my opinion would have added little to the point which is:

" ... any house also has the same meaning as the one opposite to it ..." emphasis added

This seems to go beyond simple polarites. The entire paragraph from Baldwin reads this way.

For any given house there are several meanings, such as the physical constitution, health, disposition, and character for the first; illness, prison, hidden enemies, false friends who ridicule the native and bear him secret ill-will for the twelfth; marriage litigations, and contracts for the seventh; for the tenth -- professional activities, honor and prestige; and so on for the other houses, as we have shown elsewhere. And any house also has the same meaning as the one opposite to it by dint of the opposition itself, but only accidentally, and experience will show this to be true, for Mars in the second threatens death and Jupiter in the eighth is an indication of money; Saturn in the sixth shows illness or prison; while Venus in the twelfth shows good fortune in connection with servants and animals; and so on. But this does not hold true for the rulers of the houses. The ruler of the fourth does not have any influence on the meanings of the tenth house unless it is actually in the fourth or rules over the tenth house ruler, or is strong in aspect to the tenth house cusp or the ruler of the sign there; and the same applies to the other houses in opposition. A planet strong by celestial state holds great signfiicance will be weaker. However, the opposition of a planet always indicates opposition or difficulty in attaining the good shown by the other house while it promotes the evil of that house.

I've never seen in any of the literature, classical or modern, the idea that opposite houses have identical meanings.

Let's look at this a little at a time:

For any given house there are several meanings, such as the physical constitution, health, disposition, and character for the first; illness, prison, hidden enemies, false friends who ridicule the native and bear him secret ill-will for the twelfth; marriage litigations, and contracts for the seventh; for the tenth -- professional activities, honor and prestige; and so on for the other houses , as we have shown elsewhere

Here he is simply reiterating the fundamental meanings of the houses. It should be noted that rather unconventionally, Morinus associated illness with the 12th house.

And any house also has the same meaning as the one opposite to it by dint of the opposition itself, but only accidentally, and experience will show this to be true, for Mars in the second threatens death and Jupiter in the eighth is an indication of money; Saturn in the sixth shows illness or prison; while Venus in the twelfth shows good fortune in connection with servants and animals;

This is the point. The word "accidentally" is in italics in my translation. I did not add it. The idea that one house means the same as another apprently requires a planet occupying the house for it to be true since the rulers of the planets do not influence meanings other than the meaning of the house, unless they meet the exceptions listed after this sentence. Note: Saturn in the 6th shows illness since it is the 12th house, not the 6th, that indicates illness (in his view).

But this does not hold true for the rulers of the houses. The ruler of the fourth does not have any influence on the meanings of the tenth house unless it is actually in the fourth or rules over the tenth house ruler, or is strong in aspect to the tenth house cusp or the ruler of the sign there; and the same applies to the other houses in opposition.

These are the exceptions. The ruler will influence the opposite house if it is in the house (pretty obvious) or disposes the 10th ruler. Both of these "exeptions" are obvious particularly given what he's written on these things in earlier sections of the book. He does not mention aspects, as my understanding of Morin is that he would consider that influence to be rather minimal. Traditional authors tend not to use aspects as moderns do.

A planet strong by celestial state holds great signfiicance will be weaker. However, the opposition of a planet always indicates opposition or difficulty in attaining the good shown by the other house while it promotes the evil of that house.

We're now back to the original point. The amount of influence a planet will have on the opposite house depends on its strength. The stronger the celestial state, the greater the influence.

He continues along these lines extending the infleunce of a planet occupying one house to the houses in trine to the occupied house. That takes us elsewhere, but see The Cabal of the Twelve Houses Astrological for the reasoning behind this.

I hope this makes the point more clear.

Tom

Hi, Tom.
Well, just a simple question.
If we try take a look at the 1st and 7th houses from the point of view ?me and my enemies?.
If there is a strong planet (which effects more house?s matters than its ruler) in 7th it adds strength to my enemies, not to me. May be it will make me stronger eventually, by facing strong enemies, but they still are stronger than me.
The one of exceptions may by the situation in my chart. Have the Saturn-Mars opposition in 4th-10th and Moon sextile-trine to them from 7th. Some astrologers (traditionalist) says that such situation there is ?transfer of the power? from Saturn to Mars by Moon. That could happen if planets are not retrograde and Moon ?s phase in relation with Mars. In my case it does ? Moon is in applying trine to Mars (Mars is ?night? planet and Moon is reducing in light).

Here is Morinus on planets in opposition in opposite houses:

A planet strong by celestial state holds great significance for the house in opposition to it; if it is weak the its significance will be weaker. However, the opposition of a planet always indicates opposition or difficulty in attaining the good shown by the other house while it promotes the evil of that house.

The opposition, in traditional astrology, is always the most difficult aspect. In modern astrology they seem to be more concerned about squares. Be that as it may, Morinus tells us that the opposition is difficult regardless of celestial state. Planets in opposition oppose or make difficult the good things they promise and make the evil things easier. Here is an interesting example.

Wilt Chamberlain
American Basketball Player
Aug 21, 1936
11:27 PM EST
Philadelhia, PA USE
75 W 10 39 N 57
13 Gemini rises

Chamberlain has Mercury in Virgo on the 5th cusp opposite Saturn Rx in Pisces conjunct the 11th cusp. Mercury in rulersihp and exaltation in 5 should bring the good things of the 5th house, namely children, love, romance good times. Chamberlain was a lifelong bachelor and fathered no known children. It can be argued that Mercury is in a barren sign and there is a barren sign on the cusp, but there is a frutiful sign on the 11th (5th of the 7th), and the ruler of 11 is in rulership on the 7th cusp. By itself this indicates a good possibility of having children.

So the good things of 5 are restricted by Saturn. and the evil of the 5th is promoted by Saturn. Chaberlain once claimed to have bedded 20,000 women. That is not a typo, but it is probably an exaggeration. Probably? Well no one really believes it. It is known however that he was unusually promiscuous.

The 11th is the house of friends and Saturn would naturally limit that, perhaps slightly improved by his dispositor being angular and in domicile. But if you read the brief biographies online, they consist entirely of Chamberlain's exploits on the basketball court. There is no mention of close personal relationships, sexual or otherwise. Perhaps his womanizing prevented that for if he were even half that busy, he had no time for them. Accoding to Morinus, if Mercury had no opposition in 11, he would have many friends.

Try to apply this reasoning to your chart.

Tom

Well...the good thing about astrology is that there are different astrologers with different opinions...

Eureka ? I found one! Tiger Woods

Tom, like you said, it is difficult to find a chart that is a clear enough example with which to test Morin?s principle against, yea or nay.

Reminder of Morin quote from Tom's post upthread:

?And any house also has the same meaning as the one opposite to it by dint of the opposition itself, but only accidentally ? for Mars in the second threatens death, and Jupiter in the eighth is an indication of money; ?? ? Astrologia Gallica, Book 21, page 61, Baldwin translation AFA 1974.

I have the Lucy Little translation and it is indeed on page 57.

Tiger Woods - Birth data verified; BC/BR in hand, Rodden AA
Dec 30, 1975
10:50 PST +8:00
Long Beach, CA, USA
33N46?, 118W11
Ascendant 24Virgo


Woods? Mars in Gemini conjunct the MC easily describes an above average athlete, but by itself, not necessarily a super star athlete. In addition, a massage therapist can have Mars in Gemini conjunct the MC and work on athletes (mine does) and not necessarily on world famous ones (ditto, mine doesn?t).

If Woods had Sun and Moon in the 10th it would unquestionably portray the extent of his honors and fame. But he doesn?t have them in 10th, rather they are both in the 4th house. Sun Capricorn in 4th describes his father who taught him to strictly discipline his game and concentrate. But, it is also Tiger?s own hard earned glory and reputation of a 10th house nature. Along with Moon Sagittarius in 4th we see even more of his popularity and public acclaim. In 2000 he became the first athlete to ever receive the honor of being named Sportsman of the Year twice by Sports Illustrated (1996 and 2000). Referred to as the greatest young golfer in history, Woods? career has been luminous, as we would expect of someone with both luminaries in the 10th ? but they are in the 4th.

So far, its 2 for 2 for confirmation of Morin?s principle.

Ooops, I forgot to put the "PM" in the birth time, as follows

Tiger Woods - Birth data verified; BC/BR in hand, Rodden AA
Dec 30, 1975
10:50 PM (22:50); PST +8:00
Long Beach, CA, USA
33N46?, 118W11
Ascendant 24Virgo

I would say, if there were T-Square in the chart, the opposition of the planets no longer can be considered separately from that combination, because planet on t-square becoming a focal point of problems caused by planets in opposition. Same thing, I think, about the planet (especially luminaries) which in precise sextile-trine to the planets in opposition. It?s becoming whether an easement of that opposition or make them interacting better
(like transferring power in my case).

Woods? Mars in Gemini conjunct the MC easily describes an above average athlete, but by itself, not necessarily a super star athlete.

I know. I have Mars conjunct the ASC and, sad to say, never earned a dime from athletics. Spent quite a bit though, equipment, doctors, etc.

Good example. Thanks for writing.

Tom

Hello Tom,

Sorry for the late response...

Morinus said and you quoted,

Morin tells us that a planet in a house is more influential than the planet that rules that house

I find it very difficult to accept the idea that one planet rules or determines (as Morinus would have put it) the matter governed by the house the planet is in. A house rules many areas of life e.g. the 7th rules marriage, intimate relationships, open enemies, litigations, partnerships, associations, etc. All of these meanings cannot be ruled by just one planet. Granted that the planet in 7th (for simplicity let us assume that there is only one planet in 7th) is more influential than the ruler of 7th, I don't think that the planet in 7th has greater influence in all areas governed by 7th house.

Let us assume that we have Saturn in 7th H in Cancer (detriment). The cusp of the 7th is Cancer - domicile ruler is Moon in Taurus (in exaltation) and exalted ruler Jupiter in Pisces (in domicile rulership). We leave the triplicities out first (Morinus has its own scheme... and he did not use terms/bounds and faces/decans).

Saturn (a malefic) in bad zodiacal condition (detriment) will wreak havoc in the 7th - but to all areas governed by 7th? Granted that Saturn is more influential (not sole determinant) of matters governed by 7th, which area of life will be more influenced by Saturn and which would be more influenced by Moon who is in exaltation and Jupiter who is in rulership?]
Saying that Saturn has more influence does not give us much hope on matters governed by the 7th house...

I have all of Morinus books (translation of course!) but I did not spend a summer on them! So I might have missed a lot...

Hi,

Let me explain my own position before I get into your post. I?m posting this stuff to generate interest (I hope) and discussion. I?m not sure I buy into everything this man says, but I do admit I find him and his methods intriguing. So in that spirit, in this thread and maybe elsewhere, I?ll play devil?s advocate and try to explain what I?ve gleaned from his work as best I understand it. I welcome any other opinions on his work whether from people who are less than familiar with him or perhaps on intimate terms with his work. I don?t care if they are challenges, or glowing examples of the correctness of his system.

I don?t think you missed anything. In fact you agree with Morin more than you realize. Your example is perfect. The receptions do affect the condition of Saturn in Cancer, and Morin would add aspects, antiscion, proximity to fixed stars, directions, etc. It is also possible that the houses ruled by Saturn would enter into the delineation as well as the houses trine the occupied house. He doesn?t say ?sole? determining factor anywhere that I?ve read. In the chapter titled A Single Planet in a House (Chapter 2 in Baldwin) he breaks down the different ways a planet affects the house. In your example we would say we have a malefic in an intermediate state. He is essentially weak but benefits from reception by strong dispositors:

? ? a malefic in intermediate state neither grants nor takes away anything, but only prevents the good from taking place, especially if its nature is contrary to the good, as would be the case with Saturn in the tenth house. Thus Saturn in the second in only an intermediate state neither grants nor denies money but through parsimony and avarice conserves whatever is obtained.?

Compare this with what he says about a malefic in bad shape:

? ? for planets malefic by nature, ? their adverse state will usually bring about disgrace, disaster, catastrophe, dishonor, loss of reputation, exile, prison, grave illness, a violent death, and similar misfortunes.?

So, using your example, in 7 Saturn neither grants nor denies marriage, but conserves it, and it could mean a long, miserable marriage, or perhaps the Moon in Taurus prevents even that. However, if Saturn were receiving bad aspects from a nasty Mars, and the dispositors were in bad shape, marriage could be denied or it could become a hell on earth, if it takes place.

The celestial state (see below) of the planet is of supreme importance in this system. Aspects, receptions etc are all part of that state. Saturn (enemies) does have an analogy with the 7th house of open enemies, which makes the effects of Saturn in this house even more pronounced. The main meaning of this house then would refer to those things more than partnership or marriage. Saturn, however, is always to be viewed as the most influential planet in any of the affairs of the 7th (in this example).

Saturn would also have an accidental association with the opposite house, in this case the first. So a weak Saturn could indicate a disorganized individual and that disorganization leads to difficulties in his marriage or business partnerships. Or if Mars were adversely involved, it could indicate an accident or resulting physical disability that had a detrimental effect on marriage or partnership.

Where you seem to disagree is whether the Moon, in your example, is ultimately more influential over some of the affairs of the 7th house than Saturn because of the superior essential strength of the Moon compared to that of Saturn. This may be an area of disagreement between Morin and his contemporaries as well. One example of the kind of thinking done by Morin?s contemporaries and predecessors is looking at the relative strength of Lord ASC and Lord 12. If ASC is stronger the native will triumph over his secret enemies, and vice versa. But notice this difference: most astrologers of the 17th century and earlier would be concentrating on essential dignity and secondarily on accidental dignity to see how well the essential dignity is able to play out. Morin combines them into a condition he calls ?celestial state.? It is celestial state that determines a planet?s effectiveness with the caveat that location is stronger than rulership. Location involves something he called ?terrestrial state.? Let?s leave that alone for now.

Zoltan Mason titled the Little translation of Book 21 Astrosynthesis. That is a pretty good one-word description of what Morin was doing, and he seemed to do this long before anyone else or at least he articulated it first.


Thanks for writing.

Tom