Hi everyone,
I have a question that may perhaps have been covered in other threads but I haven't had a chance to look so I'll ask it here:
When timing the perfection of an aspect between two sigs or a sig and another planet, which seems to work most accurately - real time or symbolic movement?
I'm prompted to ask because I'm looking at an horary at the moment where Mars is the sig of the querent, Venus is sig' of the open rival that is causing concern and both are combust the Sun in Libra in 12th. Here are the degrees:

Venus: 22 Lib 25'
Sun: 24 Lib 50'
Mars: 26 Lib 25.

Venus is moving swifter than the Sun and reaches 24 Libra 50 two days after the horary was cast, then moves to conjoin Mars a day later. However, in real-time, when Venus gets to 24 Lib 50' the Sun is at 26 Lib 45' and Mars is at 27 Lib 43'. Venus never actually catches up with either the Sun or Mars before they both enter Scorpio on Oct 23rd.
If we're to use real-time as a measure then this is a good example of Frustration, whereby Venus is frustrated of its conjunction with the Sun (cazimi?) because the Sun reaches Mars first.
The Sun and Mars are of similar humour (hot and dry) while Venus and Mars are completely antithetical (hot/dry - cool/moist). This however is compounded by the fact that the Sun and Mars recieve each other into detriment and fall respectively.

Anyway, I just wanted to hear someone else's take on the efficacy or otherwise of using real-time as a measure of perfection. I know John Frawley advocates it and I think Maurice McCann does (correct me if I'm wrong, Mr McCann).
What do the rest of you think?

Cheers...

Pete

I can't answer your question as such as I have never compared the two. I always assumed that what you call real-time was the only option, and am now wondering if that assumption was horribly wrong. Maybe I will be able to revisit some previous horaries and rewrite my life to date.................

Hi Pete

In timing I use a combination of both; but in this instance the question seems to be more about whether frustration exists, and on that angle I?d say that the emphasis goes to real time movement. For Lilly?s opinion, I assume that he was always aware of real time ?perfections? and based his judgement on them. For example, if the check the chart published on CA p.135, and then the comment he makes about the order of the aspects that the Sun makes through the previous sign (bottom of p.138), it looks like he?s made a mistake if you just check those aspects against the positions in the chart, because the conjunction to Mercury is missing. But if you check the formation of the aspects in real time he?s got it just right.

I think this current end-of-sign combustion of Venus and Mars is very interesting to observe, and the horaries I?ve seen where these two planets are picked out as main significators doesn?t tend to look good for either party. I?d also be interested in other people?s views about the technicalities of this movement, and also in learning of how it seems to work out in your chart.

Deb

Several years ago I spent a lot of time trying to understand timing in horary and experimented with both real time and symbolic time. In the end I could not decide which was best as the results were inconsistent. At present, I know of nobody who has worked out a reliable timing system. If there really is someone who has done this, then please let us know.

Maurice.

For Lilly?s opinion, I assume that he was always aware of real time ?perfections? and based his judgement on them. For example, if the check the chart published on CA p.135, and then the comment he makes about the order of the aspects that the Sun makes through the previous sign (bottom of p.138), it looks like he?s made a mistake if you just check those aspects against the positions in the chart, because the conjunction to Mercury is missing. But if you check the formation of the aspects in real time he?s got it just right.

Yes that seems to be the case. Personally it makes more sense to me to use real time and mark the perfection for when both planets occupy the same ecliptical degree, as in the chart I'm working on now where the Sun and Mars conjoin at 29 Libra, which occurs five days after the chart is cast.
What I'm pondering now is, do we say that perfection of this aspect therefore occurs in five increments of time (in this case using cardinal/cadent as the yardstick)? Given the question, which had to do with the wisdom of staying in her present job, and the fact that Mars moves into Scorpio on the same day as the conjunction occurs, we might be looking at a time-frame of five weeks rather than five days. It certainly looks as though she'll be in a much stronger position after the sign change - albeit still combust, but separating rather than applying.

I think this current end-of-sign combustion of Venus and Mars is very interesting to observe, and the horaries I?ve seen where these two planets are picked out as main significators doesn?t tend to look good for either party. I?d also be interested in other people?s views about the technicalities of this movement, and also in learning of how it seems to work out in your chart.

Yes me too. Venus is definitely frustrated of her conjunction to the Sun too, and I'd like to see how that plays out in other charts cast in the same few days.

Many thanks Deb,

Pete

Several years ago I spent a lot of time trying to understand timing in horary and experimented with both real time and symbolic time. In the end I could not decide which was best as the results were inconsistent. At present, I know of nobody who has worked out a reliable timing system. If there really is someone who has done this, then please let us know.

Hi Maurice,
as I understand it, John Frawley advocates the use of the real-time method and I think he discusses this in "The Real Astrology", a copy of which I don't have.
Maybe Tom can throw some light on this?

Cheers...

Pete

Hi Pete,
Could we have the data for the horoscope as I'm not sure about the frustration between Venus, Sun & Mars.

Maurice.

Could we have the data for the horoscope as I'm not sure about the frustration between Venus, Sun & Mars.

Sure:

"Will I stay in my present job?"
Oct 18th 2006
9.41 am BST
Birkenhead, UK. 53N24; 03W02'

Asc: 13 Scorp 44'.

I used SolarFire's ephemeris generator configured in hourly increments to check the movements of Venus, Sun and Mars. Accordingly, the Sun conjoins Mars at 29 Libra 44' on Oct 23rd around 8 am BST. Venus is a degree or so behind, I believe.
The Sun then enters Scorpio at lunchtime while Venus doesn't enter Scorpio until 24th.
Let me know if I've missed anything.

Pete

What I am curious about is the fact that Venus and Mars will appear to go out of combustion and then back into combustion all within a few hours. When the Sun moves into Scorpio (I have it entering at about 11.20pm Australian time on 23rd, which I think is 2:20pm BST), Venus and Mars will still be in Libra. According to Lilly's rules (not sure about his application of these rules) it will mean that Venus and Mars will no longer be in combustion because they are in a different sign from the Sun. I think there are two charts in CA where the Sun and a planet are within the 8 deg 30 min orb allowed for combustion but in different signs. One is on page 165 asking about a ship at sea. In this chart, the Sun is at about 28 deg Pisces. Mercury is at 16 deg Pisces and Lilly says that Mercury is 'entering combustion'. They are about 12 deg apart but will be within 8 deg and 30 mins before the Sun leaves Pisces. However, Venus is already within orb but in Aries. Lilly does not mention Venus but it is probably safe to assume that he does not consider it to be combust. In the only other example of a planet being within the 8 deg orb but in a different sign, (A horse stolen on page 467) Lilly does not mention the planet, in this case Venus. However, Mercury, the main significator, is only about 2 deg from the Sun and is not described as combust. It is retrograde and Liily sees this as a sign that the horse will return. He seems to make it clear in this chart and in 'If I should purchase Master B his house' that combustion of a significator is not a prohibition against a positive outcome. Lilly makes almost no mention of combustion in the charts in CA, even when a significator is combust the Sun. I am beginning to wonder how much emphasis he really did place on the condition of combustion.

In our current transits, Mars moves into Scorpio about four hours after the Sun enters Scorpio. Does this mean that Mars is brought back into combustion the minute it enters Scorpio after having escaped? And does cazimi only apply within sign too? In the meantime, Venus is still in Libra, although only just, and safe from combustion according to Lilly's rules. Does this mean that Venus is safe from combustion while it is still in Libra but re enters combustion when it moves into Scorpio?

I know it might seem that I am flogging a dead horse with this but I am very curious as to how it might play out in the practice beyond the theory. I would be curious if anyone does any charts during the time that Venus is still in Libra while Mars and the Sun have moved into Scorpio to see if there is a clear difference in the way the two significators play out. It would be great to have some outcomes of charts. We know, the Moon can go in and out of being void of course but I'm wondering if a planet can go in and out of combustion in the same way according to Lilly. I personally do not beleive that planets need to be in the same sign to be combust but I am interested in what this would mean if we were to follow Lilly's definition precisely.

Hi Pete,
As you rightly say the Sun perfects its conjunction with Mars, the querent, before Venus, the quesited conjuncts Mars, this is a case of the Sun prohibiting Venus from reaching Mars, not a frustration. In frustration Mars would have to apply and perfect an aspect or conjunction with another planet before Venus could conjunct it.

In prohibition it is a non-significator that causes the prohibition.
In frustration it is one of the significators that causes the frustration.

Hope this helps.

Maurice.

An ancillary question.
If the Sun was not in this the picture in this chart, would you consider that Venus does perfect a conjunction with Mars, because they are so close to the sign cusp, even though the actual conjunction does not happen until they are both in Scorpio?

I would myself, but the fact that the action is all happening at the end of the sign, and that the conjunction doesn?t perfect until the crossing of the sign boundary, would figure in my judgement.

Sue, with regard to the combustion issue: again I would personally want to bring in some significance for that sign boundary, but I wouldn?t see a period where either planet is free of the Sun because they would still be counted ?under Sun?s beams? regardless of sign placement.