A few months ago I met a man (ok, I had just hired him as my attorney) that I felt quite attracted to...

But after checking out his website, my best friend has convinced me he's gay. (He's an amateur photographer and musician, and has lots of photos of his travels and mostly male friends posted). I usually can pick up on "gay"ness but I did not get the gay vibe from him, but then again, I only met him once.

Here's the chart: Is he gay? http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?nhor ... gm=a1&ast=

As you can see, there's a bunch of planets in the 5th house, ruling "romance" or as Lee Lehman would say, romantic partners that you're not married to. But if you read the chart from "his" perspective, the 5th house becomes his 11th and there is my significator, the Moon, ruling friendship. (I wouldn't mind that). Interestingly, there sits venus and mars, too, about to conjunct, but as luck would have it, Venus is in her detriment, though Mars is strong. (Might this be an indication of heterosexuality for him, if you assign Mars to him because he's male?)

But if he's my attorney, which he is, then I would have to say he's ruled by Saturn, my seventh house. Saturn is in detriment in Leo, so maybe this argues for "gay."

Notice he's in my second! (I've already paid him his fee). However, my ruler, the Moon, is in his fifth house and eventually will trine him. (I guess this is good for our relationship as attorney/client, in any case).

Any thoughts?

I would feel uncomfortable doing this. For a start, I do not believe that there are indicators of 'gayness' in natal charts. We can't determine gender in natal charts so how can we determine sexuality? Relationships are relationships no matter who is having them. Secondly, I think this borders on a breech of confidentiality. If he wants you to know he is gay then he can tell you. I don't see anything wrong with asking about a potential relationship. The chart will show that you either will or you won't have a relationship but my personal opinion (which is just that) is that I would draw the line at trying to determine his sexuality, even if we are able to do this, particularly if he chooses to keep it confidential for his own reasons.

Saturn is in detriment in Leo, so maybe this argues for "gay."

Not sure how this follows. Does this mean that every man with Saturn in Leo is gay? That certainly raises the percentage of gay men in the world.

I'll bet he is very attractive! With Venus, Mars and the Sun in Scorpio, I'll bet he is dripping with sex appeal, and magnetic attraction. However, I do think with Neptune in his eighth house, he may be prone to having it both ways, and to explorations into sexual natures. It depends if he lives more on the darker/edgier side of life or on a higher spiritual consciousness. How his energy is. If it is dark, I'd say, he definitely, has had it both ways, male and female and possibly at the same time. also with Neptune there, he may be prone to sexual additions.

However, if his energy is light and clear, I'd say his sexual experiences were beautiful, and looking for a spiritual ecstasy in these experiences as well as for a connection that is both physical and spiritual.

Just a few thoughts about your attorney.

Regarding sexuality in the chart, (response of Debs) I think you can see it sometimes, especialy if it is strong. Mars and Uranus in the 8th hse, tends towards unusual, exciting sexual behaviior. If it is in Gemini in the 8th, I'd say its a good bet they are dual in nature, sexually or possibly prefer men. No judgement here, just observations. It depends as I mention above in my opinion, where their energy level(what energies they are using in their lives) and consciousness lay. Other factors in the chart will verify which side, as well as meeting them in person.

So what is everyone else's take on that?

Thanks for everyone's insights. I understand that if he's gay, he may want to keep it a secret... but I was wondering if horary astrology could be used to make such a determination. (I recall reading a delineation in one horary book where the astrologer determined a gay person had stolen his jewelry. Somehow it seems like it was a male astrologer who wrote a whole series of astrology books whose name escapes me at the moment). I think it was Noel Tyl.

At any rate, the reason I suggested that maybe Saturn in Leo argued for "gay" was only because Saturn in Leo is in its detriment and if one uses the traditional way of thinking about homosexuality, I was making an analogy. But I also think anytime a significator is in its detriment, it could mean many things about that person: for example, maybe they're ill, or something is not right about their circumstances at the moment.

Either way, since my significator will trine his, I'm hoping that augers for a potentially rewarding relationship, no matter if he's gay or not. C'est la vie!

I agree that there are privacy issues here. His sexuality is his own business after all

However, having said that, Frawley gives a method for this type of horary question! If asking about a man, look for his significators in Sun dignities (loving men) or negative Venus dignities (hating women).

Here he is shown by Saturn in Leo - ruled by the Sun
and the Sun as natural ruler of men - in Scorpio, the detriment of Venus.

So I think we have an answer - according to this method, he is indeed gay!

Voagergirl, I think you're just overwhelmed by him sexually at the moment - Moon in Sagittarius is uninterested in Saturn, and Venus is combust, showing your animal woman under the thrall of his animal man! Perhaps when Venus leaves combustion you will be able to see the situation more clearly. Good luck!

I do think this thread raises both ethical and philosophical issues. I agree with what Sue has already said.

I don't believe that sexual orientation can be determined from a natal or horary chart. I find the examples given unconvincing.

Even a natal chart can only deliver so much about a person. There is always going to be unquantifiable aspects to a person that cannot be reduced to astrological symbolism. Astrologers can get carried away when they start to assume a human existence is all laid out in a natal chart.

Gender and sexuality are just two examples of the limitations of a birth chart. Debilitated planets are a perfect demonstration that we cannot make rigid deterministic assumptions about a person. Otherwise there is no room for human free will & intentionality.

Mark

I think it is natural for people to be uncomfortable discussing some subjects. (whether that is learned behavior or natural I dont know, but it exists so one cannot ignore it) I dont know that Astrology can or cannot determine such things as sexuality, gender or gender preference.

I do know that if a subject is not discussed it remains a point of contention and continues to grow more irritable. as a wise old politician once said "I dont know of any idea that is so goll danged frightening, that it can't be talked about. Hell yes I'm for talking about independence..." 1776 (the play)

However one should take into consideration that high emotions will be invoked and feelings are likely to get hurt in such a discussion because there are persons who will take the discussion VERY personally. Who will not wish to or be able to take the subject in objectively.

If I recall correctly Lillie gave judgements about a persons passionate nature, though I dont have it handy so I can't give place reference.

It is possible that some homework should be considered before taking the discussion further? maybe? In anycase, I understand where Sue is coming from, and I do think you should be careful of whom you speak and what you say as to protect this persons privacy. Perhaps you should consider using the charts of some persons who are decidedly out of the closet for your public discussion and learning tools, what ever conclusions you come to? But I also think it is something that could use some discussion.

Just to really throw a wrench into your thinking, is an XY female gay if s/he dates men? or women? in in 120,000 babies born is an XY female. SEcondly, all invertabrates are innately female until second trimester of gestation. when they may get testosterone poisoning. (yes that is humor, though essentially correct.) anyway, some thoughts to make you think...

thoughts?

Granny

Hello Lainie,

Personally I am not at all uncomfortable discussing this subject. In any case posting or reading a thread is a matter of choice. I certainly don't want to stiffle discussion. I was just expressing my own scepticism on this issue. I certainly find some of the evidence presented to support this idea here risible.

Its possible I may be imposing my 21st century politically correct mindset to this I suppose. Some of the statements of the early sources e.g Firmicus etc are quite specific as I recall and do include references to sexual orientation.

I do feel though that the onus is on those claiming this link to make their case convincingly.

Mark

Mark,

I agree with you, but after reading the full thread I just felt compelled to tell them to keep talking. After all, if unsound judgements are used, one cannot correct them if one does not see them. So not discussing a topic can lead quite quickly to spurious judgements. well one of my opinions anyway. =)

Granny

Personally, I do not think that all or most gay men "hate" women.There are more and more studies showing a physiological basis for preference in males, and at least one in females. Male sexuality is somewhat more compulsive or hardwired than female sexuality, and I believe it frequently can be deduced from a chart on the same basis everything else is- that of probability only.

As for someone's sexuality being a "secret" that is inappropriate for horary, I find that specious. Afterall, we talk about whether someone is a thief, an arsonist, etc., so why should we be so uptight about sexual preference, which should be a happy thing? The other things are felonies, after all.

I instituted a thread once on another site re: a specific chart and sexual sadism. It was an extremely interesting and fruitfull discussion. Of course all such references must be anonymous or with permission, but help people learn.

I think Karen and Granny Skot are on to something. The idea of using the chart of a famous person whom we KNOW to be gay is a great idea. With that in mind, I'm posting the chart of Mark Foley, who recently got into a lot of trouble for sending sexually suggestive messages to his young congressional pages.

Here's the chart. http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/FoleyMark.htm.

As you can see, he's got 28 Leo rising, coupled with that 12th house Pluto right on his ascendant. (Pluto signals a strong sexual nature in my book and I should know: I have it almost exactly on my ascendent, too.)

But other than that, he's got his Mars in exaltation (which seems nice and manly to me) but there is Venus in its detriment, too. (But then, lots of people must have these planets there and they can't all be gay!) One astrologer suggested that looking at the outer planets, such as Uranus in relation to Mars and Venus might be a clue, but Mars isn't close enough to be in opposition to Uranus and Venus isn't doing anything in reference to Uranus either.

Does anyone have a chart for comedienne Ellen DeGeneres?

I'm in agreement with the person who said it was probably unlikely that one could determine one's sexual orientation from one's natal chart.

But horary charts are not natal charts, after all. The very purpose of the horary chart is to answer specific questions, which is why the rules are different for horary charts than natal charts.

As for my attorney, I am acquainted with someone who knows him -- or at least knows of him -- better than I. So I might find out that way.

I don't know of any way to determine a person's sexual orientation from a horary chart, though there may be indications in the natal chart which is not presented here. It seems to me that Lilly addresses the issue of this question in his discussion of whether a rumor is true (CA pages 192 - 201). Someone suggested that this attorney might be gay, so it's an unsubstantiated rumor. The horary question seems to be whether this rumor has any validity.

On page 193 Lilly says to take the Lord of the ASC and the Moon and see if they are in an Angle; or if the dispositor of the Moon is in an Angle and a fixed sign; or if any of these be succedent in a fixed sign. Here Jupiter disposes the ASC-ruler Moon and lies in the 5th in Scorpio, so this condition applies. ... or if any of these are in good aspect with Jupiter, Venus, or the Sun .. then the rumor is true. (Here both Jupiter and the Sun are in Scorpio but are 22 degrees apart). So the rumor may be true. Also favoring this is the fact that Jupiter trines the MC. Against it being true is Saturn conjunct the 3rd cusp (news, reports) closely square Jupiter, which disposes the Moon. However, Jupiter conjoins Mercury, a general signifier of reports suggesting a true report. Mercury and Jupiter are disposed by Mars in dignity in its domicile Scorpio and receving a conjunction from benefic Venus, probably also suggesting a true report.

So on balance, it looks like the rumor may be true.