Hi Everyone

A friend of mine had his garage broken into and lots of stuff stolen.
This is a business not a domestic abode. I asked the question "Who broke into X's Garage? Details 6th November 2006 time 16:13:38 location 52N 0001W. The ascendant is 10 degrees Taurus - now Neptune is in the 11th house I know traditional astrology does not recognise the outer planets although some astrologers do occasionally. I wonder if this means that it is someone he knows possible a friend - Neptune deceit. I would like to know what others think about this.

Dolly

Hi Dolly,

7th house shows open enemies, i.e. the thief/thieves.

Neptune could be important, but only if it's right on a house cusp (two degrees or less, in my opinion). However, I cannot see your reasoning for bringing the 11th house into it. Is there a suspicion it was a friend? Links between the friend(s) and thieves would be shown by contact between Lord 11 and Lord 7. But I still wouldn't jump to any conclusions - spreading suspicion without solid evidence cannot be a good thing.

Hi kerenhappuch

Thanks for replying to my post. No I don't suspect any friends its just that when Neptune appears on the ascendant it is supposed to mean deceit and fogginess and because it is in the 11th in this chart I just assumed 11th friends. Obviously wrongly by the sounds of it. I think I will have to take another look between 7th and 1st Rulers. I will post my ideas afterwards.

Dolly

I've been looking at this chart some and I'm stumped by it for now.

My main problem with is with figuring out what the significators are. If your friend had asked you the question, it would be simple. He would be the ASC, the thief would be either the 7th house ruler or some peregrine planet in the 7th house. But since you asked the question, I'm not sure whether to turn the chart or not. Usually I don't like to do that, and with so many planets in the radical 7th, two of them Mercury and Jupiter being peregrine, I'm more tempted not to turn the chart.

On the other hand we have that peregrine Saturn in the turned 7th house, using the 11th house to show your friend. Following this line, the items that were stolen would be shown by the radical 12th house, the 2nd house away from the 11th and would be represented by Jupiter. This fits as Saturn has just made a contact with Jupiter.

Does anybody else want to get this one started?

Hello Mark & Dolly

I'm having internet problems at the moment and it's very late so I may not be able to follow through on this, but I put up the chart and offer some thoughts to see what you think of the line of reasoning. I would be inclined to turn the chart.

Friend = Mars, L7
Garage = Saturn, turned L4
Thieves = Venus, turned L7

This shows Jupiter separating from the square to Saturn - friend's possessions just having left the garage. Jupiter is also conjunct the PoF, showing the stolen goods were important to the friend.

Venus, as the thief, is combust so can't be seen and so is Mercury - what is now the thief's possession. Sun rules turned 11th. Interesting that Jupiter is turned L2 and L6, what friend values and is of service. Mars is intercepted ruler of 6th, I wonder if the thief is some sort of employee, perhaps regarded as a friend?

Sungem

Sungem,

How do you get Mars to be the friend of the querent? It looks like you're using the 7th house as the querent's friend. If so, I don't see that would be possible. 7th house would be his enemy, spouse or business partner, or perhaps even the thief himself.

As I looked at this chart more, I'm more inclined to turn it, as the question really is about the querent's friend. Given that assumption, I'd come up with the friend as the radical 11th, his possessions as the radical 12th. But starting off in this track, I'd assign Saturn as the thief and not to the querent because Saturn is peregrine and in the house that's seven houses away from the turned 1st house. In that case I'd have the Moon represent the querent. This approach would show the goods as Jupiter having just separated from a square with Saturn which shows the theft. And the Moon has just separated from an opposition with Jupiter and is not quite void of course. So the goods are leaving the querent, never to return.

If this approach is right, I guess we could look at Jupiter and haul out Lilly's guidelines to see where the goods are. But, since I don't see any applying aspects from Jupiter to the querent or to his house I'm not sure it would do any good.

By the way, Lilly says to use the 4th house as the place where the stolen goods now are, but I haven't tried this so I'm not sure about it.

Sorry Mark I didn't mean to add to the confusion by not explaining things very well. I took Dolly's question literally to assign the houses.

"Who broke into X's Garage?"

X becomes radical L7 as in another person. Even though Dolly states X is a friend, I've usually had more luck with assigning "another person" to the radical 7th, despite them being a friend. I took the turned 4th (radiacal L10) to represent the garage as a fixed piece of property, whether rented or owned is irrelevant. Then Jupiter is turned L2, moveable possessions, leaving the square to Saturn.

Since I said I would turn the chart, this then gives the turned 7th (radical 1st) to the thief as per Lilly. The chart just seemed to make sense to me when I looked at the significators this way.

If the chart is turned like this it is the Sun, turned 11th (radical 5th) and possible friend, which is 'hiding' Venus the thief and Mercury, what is now their goods.

But I do agree with you, I took the Moon as "flow of events" - the Moon is about to leave exhaltation and triplicity to change sign - they were successful and the goods may not be seen again.

I'll try to get back to this tonight to look at things from the radical 11th as turned 1st - assuming my internet connection behaves.

Sungem

Well this is one of those situations that as long as we come up with a no answer, no matter what out technique, we?ll probably be right. How many people can back items that are stolen? And since we both use the Moon as the course of events and it?s void of course, there?s our no answer.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I can?t justify using the 7th house as the querent?s friend. Dolly describes the person as her friend and that puts him in the 11th house. I think things have to both make sense to me and be backed up by the tradition and so friends get the 11th house plain and simple. If we used the 7th house for everybody except ourselves, then we could place our kids, pets, coworkers, employees, and neighbors in the 7th house. That just doesn?t make sense. Can you explain why it does make sense?

I think if the person who was robbed had asked Dolly the question himself the chart would have been clearer.

Thank you all for looking at this chart for me. I am afraid I gave up. I got into such a muddle with it. Any more ideas on this would be really appreciated. I am just about following your deductions. If it helps my friend actually rents the premises from me so he is my tenant.

Dolly

Oh my! The house you pick for the person really depends on how you see this person in your life. If you see the person primarily as a friend, he's shown by the 11th house. If you see him primarily as a tenant, he'd be shown either by the 6th or 7th house. In Lilly's Renaissance world, tenants were always shown by the 6th house, as it?s a house of weakness and tenants are subservient to us. But this placement shows the old feudal relationships of master and tenant. In Lilly?s world, the landlord really was the Lord, with all that implies. Tenants were represented by the same house where you?d find you small animals, pets and your household servants, in other words you lackeys. Today?s world has change a lot, and bosses don?t have quite the same power over us. (Except for the bosses I?ve had.) So John Frawley says to use the 7th house for tenants as he thinks that they really are a business partner of the owner.

Of course you could make the same argument to place all of your employees into the 7th house because they no longer at the lackeys to the boss but are independent people who have entered into a business relationship with the company. Yes, I know. I don?t think that holds up too. That?s why I am inclined to still see tenants as being shown by the 6th house. The real question is whether you feel as an equal in business to your landlord, and I can?t see anyone thinking that. The landlord can evict you, but you can?t evict him. Tenants lack power and the 6th house as a cadent house and one that does not make a strong aspect to the ASC is a weak house.

So what do we do? Sungem and I have both given you a no answer by using either the 11th or 7th house. So you can try the 6th and see if that works. But we really shouldn?t be fiddling with charts, they should be approached with some systematic thinking. You started out by calling this person your friend, so maybe that?s the answer. You?d have to ask yourself how do you refer to him with others, as your friend or as your tenant. That would settle it for me.

I hope you?re satisfied!

Hi Mark

I think we have to go back to the question ?Who broke into X?s garage?? We?re not looking to see if the goods will be recovered, though that answer may well be in the chart. We?re trying to find out who the thief is ? known or unknown.

Using the 11th for X

X = Saturn, radical L11
Thief = Sun, radical L5 (turned 7 from R-11)
Goods = Jupiter, radical L12 (turned 2 from R-11)


Since the Sun rules no other house, in this scenario I?m inclined to say the thief is a stranger to X. However if Sun is the thief, I would also expect to see a separating aspect between Sun and X, his goods or the garage. Sun is applying to aspect these significators.

Given that assumption, I'd come up with the friend as the radical 11th, his possessions as the radical 12th. But starting off in this track, I'd assign Saturn as the thief and not to the querent because Saturn is peregrine and in the house that's seven houses away from the turned 1st house. In that case I'd have the Moon represent the querent.

I believe the thief?s significator must always be the 7th from whichever house we assign to X. The Moon cannot signify a querent/quesited in a turned chart unless it is the house ruler. On the other hand, I wonder if the thief may be known to X, since Saturn receives Sun by sign and triplicity?

The Sun?s last aspect was a sextile to X?s 12th cusp of secretive things/deeds.... and the Sun was last aspected by Venus. turned 3rd of neighbours, communication and short journeys but is combust. Neighbour didn?t see? Won?t say?

In this scenario the Moon rules X?s turned 6th of employees and service/repair personnel. It has just left conjunction with Jupiter (goods), the opposition being an aspect that brings things together only to pull them apart again. Someone known to X as an employee or service person stole the goods and has since disposed of them? However there is no reception between the Sun and Moon to indicate they might be one and the same person, but I don't know if there should be. Again, it?s unlikely that X will recover his possessions since there is no applying aspect between Saturn and Jupiter.

Will the thief be uncovered? Maybe. Sun does apply to Jupiter which is also the law ? turned L10 (radical 8th), but may be either frustrated or helped by Venus/Mercury.

Hmmm...well I?m not happy with it, but it?s the best I can do I think if the radical 11th is to be taken as X. If you feel this has any merit, maybe we can explore the Venus/Mercury.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I can?t justify using the 7th house as the querent?s friend. Dolly describes the person as her friend and that puts him in the 11th house. I think things have to both make sense to me and be backed up by the tradition and so friends get the 11th house plain and simple.

Yes, I understand how you might feel this way and I respect that this is the way you work. However I did say ?I've usually had more luck with assigning 'another person' to the radical 7th, despite them being a friend.? I?ve found in several charts that using the radical 7th as 'another person' has given the right answer ? even when that person has been a friend or teacher. The 11th has only given the right answer when the person involved was someone I?ve known for most of my life, using the 9th for a teacher has not given the answer as clearly as the 7th in the couple I?ve tried. This has been trial and error and isn?t cast in stone though and has sometimes only been evident when I?ve gone back and re-read the chart from the 7th house perspective having first taken the accepted 9th or 11th.

If we used the 7th house for everybody except ourselves, then we could place our kids, pets, coworkers, employees, and neighbors in the 7th house. That just doesn?t make sense. Can you explain why it does make sense?

Yes, I would put co-workers in the 7th ? however I would have thought you?d know me well enough by now to know that I would try to assign all the others their relevant house, I think this is an extrapolation beyond what was intended. I use the 7th only when they don?t fit into a ?traditionally? assigned house. A co-worker is not some planet floating around the 10th, they are our equal ? partner in work if you like - and I think that is the best explanation I can give for why I keep testing the 7th in this respect. I appreciate that it may not make sense to you and I can?t quote Lilly on it for you. Why are thieves the 7th? They are not our partner, but presumably they are our ?equal? in some sense and don?t have a relationship to us in any other way. Sorry if this is unsatisfactory.

Eeeeek!!!! I was about to hit the send button and saw the next post! Back to the 7th?

This is in answer to Toms question.
First I said my "friend" but when I think about it he has become more like a friend now than he was when he first took over the premises. Before this he was more of an acquaintance - i.e. we never mixed socially but I knew of him and had met him on a few occassions. So taking all this into account I think we probably must put him in the category of "Tenant". I have read Frawleys t books and in one he actually describes the thief - this really is what I am curious about and was there more than one? The evidence points to more than one. Any ideas?

Thank you
Dolly