Skyscript Astrology Forum

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Lousy, stupid math mistake corrected as of November 25.

I freely admit that I?m lousy at math, so if there are mistakes here, please correct them for me. I?m sure about the overall method though as being the one that Lilly describes.

Thanks to Tony for spotting the math mistake. Serves me right for trying to do math late at night. I had two choices for the direction that I was going to make and I combined the numbers from two different aspects. This is why this stuff needs to be automated.

This is better, let?s hope. The math isn?t really hard, it?s just that there are several steps.
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I wanted to put out there what I know so far on how to do directions, and what I?ve learned so far is right out of Christian Astrology.

I'm not so much interested in interpretation right now, just in getting an actual direction in front of us.

The first step is to pick a natal chart and then pick a particular direction. For my chart I?ve picked the chart of Divine, the late great star of Hairspray and Pink Flamingos. It?s my post. I get to pick who I want.

Divine was born on October 19, 1945 in Baltimore, MD, at 7:28 AM, 39?N17'25'', 076?W36'45'', + 5 GMT.

I want to know how much time will have to elapse from the date of Divine?s birth till the ASC reaches a sextile with Venus. I want this to be a pleasant example, and since math is involved I?ll need all the help I can muster. Venus is in her own sign of Libra and is in the 11th house, so this sounds good.

Because Venus is at 00? 26? of Libra, the ASC will make its sextile to Venus when it?s at 00? 26? of Sagittarius. The ASC is at 08? 21? Scorpio. How far apart are these two points? Once we find that distance, we will convert that from degrees and seconds to years, days and hours. That?s directions in its simplest form. One year of time is indicated by one degree of distance.

First we have to covert these two positions measured by signs into places on the 360? wheel of the ecliptic. 08? 21? of Scorpio is 218? 21? and 00? 26? Sagittarius is 240? 21?.

Before we subtract these, first we have to first convert these two numbers into oblique ascension for the latitude of Baltimore for the year of Divine?s birth. Let?s set aside for now why we have to do this, and what exactly oblique ascension is and let?s just accept that this is the method as described by Lilly and others.

There is a great website called Right and Oblique Ascension.
OK, so we enter in 1945 for the year and 39? 17' for the latitude. So in the table we have to look up the oblique ascension for the two numbers above.

218? 21? becomes 227? 33? in oblique ascension. Notice that I?m using the entry for 218? 20?, having rounded down.

240? 21? becomes 255? 17? in oblique ascension. I used the entry for 240? 30?, rounding up.

Now we subtract the difference, and that comes out to 28? 44?.

Now we have to find out how many years and days has to pass that for the ASC to travel that far.

In Christian Astrology book III on page 713 is a table. If we look up 28? in that table we find that it corresponds to 28 years, 149 days and 21 hours. On page 714 is another table for taking care of the 44?. When we look up 44? in that table we get 271 days, 18 hours. We now add our two numbers up,

28 149 21
+ 271 18
that adds up to
28 420 39

Since we only have 365 days in a year and 24 hours in a day, that becomes, 29 years, 55 days, 15 hours. That?s how long it will take for Divine?s ASC to reach a sextile with Venus. And we?re pretty much done here. We can see that this direction would have happened about two months past Divine?s 29th birthday.

Our final step is to add those years and days to the date of Divine?s birth to find out when the exact date of this direction is. So we add 29 years, 55 days and 15 hours to Divine?s date of birth, which is October 19, 1945. Since 15 hours is more than half a day we will add one more day to the number of days.

So, our final answer is December 13, 1974. Sometimes if there are hundred of days to add to a given birthday, I use Excel to find the exact date. But with these things, I don?t think exact dates matter so much. I?m fine with what I said above about this happening two months past Divine?s 29th birthday.

Lilly would have us use the same method for directing the mid-heaven, except that he says Ptolemy says to use right ascension where we used oblique ascension for the ASC. The rest of the process is exactly the same, it?s just that for the mid-heaven we use the other column in the table on that website.

I tried this method a lot using the example chart of the merchant that Lilly uses and I?m absolutely sure it works. I replicated the directions that Lilly came up for the ASC and mid-heaven.

I freely admit that I?m lousy at math, so if there are mistakes here, please correct them for me. I?m sure about the overall method though as being the one that Lilly describes.

But for the life of me I can?t see how Lilly directs the Sun, Moon and part of fortune. He doesn?t say and I don?t have a clue. So we have 2/5 of it done.

Now what? What does this directions mean? Lilly gives a lot of examples for what it means to direct the ASC and other hylegical points, but in short the ASC is the body of the person, their health. Since it?s so personal it can show marriage and children coming into our life. For this particular direction, the ASC directed to Venus Lilly says,

A jolly and pleasant time, full of Profit, and Content, the Native prone to Banquet, Feast, dally with Women, marries a virtuous Wife (if she is so signified in the Radix) or if formerly married, he may now expect a Child; however, of what condition soever the Native is, it imports good according to the quality of his Life; if a Tradesmen or a Country Farmer, he has good success in his Vocation, finds his kinfolk very kind unto him, lives contentedly, and is well respected.

Lilly uses two terms here that need some explanation. The thing that we move to make the direction, in this example, the ASC, this is called the Significator. The thing that it makes an aspect with in the natal chart is called the Promittor so Venus is the Promittor here. The significator is what is affected by the direction.

The Promittor is what does the affecting. The Promittor shows ?the manner, quality and from whom.? (pg. 787) Since the ASC represents the body and life of the native, when we direct the ASC to Venus that will show that the native will be nicely affected by someone shown by Venus in the natal chart. Since in Divine?s chart, Venus rules the 7th house romance would have to be a strong possibility for this direction. Look at the quote from Lilly and you?ll see that in action. Since the ASC is the life of the person in general, it means an overall good time, happiness, fun, brought to the native by women in particular but also by another other Venereal things or people, parties, food and drink, parties, music, etc.

If we direct the ASC to a square or opposition to either Mars or Saturn, that would show a physical threat the health of the native from either cuts, burns, guns, all kinds of violence, warfare, young men, soldiers, the police, or fevers, etc. (Mars), or from falls, blunt objects, colds, old men, etc. If we direct the part of fortune to an opposition with Saturn, the person?s financial state will suffer from doing business with old men, serious or austere people, and especially from bad real estate dealings.

When we direct the mid-heaven to some Promittor, our careers and reputation are affected.

Again, the Significator is the part that we direct. The object that we direct it to is called the Promittor. The Significator represents the part of our life that is affected. The Promittor represents the external cause, the thing that brings us good or bad.

It all has be applied back to the natal chart. If both of them are weak in the natal chart, the direction won?t have much affect. Lilly seems to say that the strength of the Promittor is more import for seeing how strongly felt the direction is. If we direct the ASC to a square with Saturn, and Saturn is in his own sign and nicely placed in a good house in the nativity, this means a less destructive time than if Saturn were in its detriment and in a bad house. We all have weak points in our charts. Apparently the really bad times are shown when something, particularly the ASC is directed to them. House position seems to matter a lot too. If you?ve got both infortunes in the angles, as the merchant does in Lilly?s example, the damage that is caused when something is directed to them will be that much more evident. I can see now why they say that Saturn has its joy in the 12th house and Mars the 6th; you want them out of the way.

In other words, it all goes back to the natal chart. If you've got a really strong chart, with good planets in angles, you'll get some good affects from directions. If you've got a bad chart with the infortunes in the angles, you'll see some bad times.

Lilly also uses Solar revolution charts and something called an annual profection chart to corroborate what the directions tells us. But this is enough for now.

Of course, this is all just Lilly's ideas. I haven't really tested this out with any real charts yet.

Mark,

It appears that you are calculating a converse primary direction. The normal primary motion would carry the ASC toward an eventual conjunction with Venus. The ASC must be directed conversely from 8 SCO 21 to 0 SAG 26 to come to a converse primary directed sextile to Venus at 0 LIB 26.

The oblique ascension of 8 SC 21 is about 228.
The oblique ascension of 0 SAG 26 is about 255 deg 49 min.

The difference in oblique ascension for the ASC to come to a converse primary sextile of Venus is about 27 deg 49 min.

Tony

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See above ? I corrected the math mistake that Tony pointed out. Thanks again. This is hard enough to understand without math mistakes that make it impossible to follow.
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Yes I know, and every time I've showed this technique to someone, which has only been a few times, I've heard back "But that's not the way it's done! You're doing it backwards!" To which I reply that I'm doing it the way that Lilly did.

Look at his example of the merchant on pages 708-709 of Christian Astrology. His merchant's chart has 06? 37? Capricorn rising. He wants us to see how he directs the ASC to the terms of Mars, which start at 20? of Capricorn. So yes, the movement is in the counter clockwise direction, the direction forward along the ecliptic.

In his huge tables for all the directions of the merchants life that start on page 765, the first one he lists is the ASC being directed to a square of Venus at 06? 54? Capricorn. The ASC is being directed forward along the ecliptic. (Forget that our software tells us that Venus was at a slightly different place for this chart, this is just doing an example.) If you read down the list of the dozens and dozens of examples, Lilly is consistently moving the ASC forwards along the ecliptic, in a counter-clockwise direction. The same is true for the mid-heaven where he directs it along the ecliptic from Scorpio to Sagittarius and then on to Capricorn. The same holds true for the Sun where it moves from Libra to Scorpio and so on.

Lilly also has us first convert all of the numbers for the ASC and mid-heaven into oblique ascension, and for the mid-heaven to right ascension, citing Ptolemy.

He means no more, but that the ascendant in every Nativity is to be directed by the oblique ascensions of the Climate; the mid-heaven by the right ascensions?
pg. 708

I am absolutely rock bottom, totally sure that what I laid out here is just the way that Lilly did them. Like I said in my first post, the ASC and mid-heaven are easy to follow. Lilly doesn?t present the math for how he directs the Sun, Moon and Part of Fortune, though he does move them forward along the ecliptic. In the examples that Lilly gives for directions of the Sun, Moon and fortune, sometimes he does the direction ?with latitude? but most of the time not. Why? I have no idea what he means by this terms or why he uses it sometimes and not others. A lot of work has to be done to understand how Lilly directs the planets and fortune.

Now the question is, does it work? I don?t know since I?m just getting started with them. How did others of Lilly?s time do directions? I don?t know either. My only other source is this translation I?m doing of a chart that Cardano did for King Edward VI. I?m not done with the translation by any means, but already he?s given two examples for directions, one along in the direction of the ecliptic and the other against it.

In fact Lilly sometimes does use directions that go against the direction of the ecliptic. On page 787, he?s dealing with a very powerful and bad direction where the part of fortune is directed to be opposite Saturn. That would show a major financial crisis for his merchant friend as he explains at length. To bolster his argument that this will be a bad year for him Lilly cites in addition that in the same year that Mars will come to the square of the part of fortune. If you look at the chart for the merchant that can only mean that Mars is directed against the direction of the ecliptic in a clock-wise fashion. So what is Lilly?s technique then if he on occasion uses both? Lilly?s technique seems to be that he used directions where the planet or point is moved forward along the ecliptic, but when he wants some support for a pattern that?s already been established, he?ll also use a direction that is made against the ecliptic. And this is typical Lilly. He?s set forth rules that are meant to be broken, but not haphazardly.


Tony, I see that we have slight difference is the directed arc. I have 28? 44?, while you have 27? 49?. Where do you get your oblique ascensions from? I?m trusting that web site I cited but who know how they calculate it.

The question that I get from some people is why do we convert the positions of the ASC to oblique ascension and the mid-heaven to right ascension? Again, all I am doing here is following Lilly and he cites Ptolemy as his source. He does cite Ptolemy?s words in Latin for that quote that I gave above. I?ve looked at the Latin and of course Ptolemy doesn?t use the terms oblique and right ascension. I also realize that thousands of hours of work by hundreds of people down through the ages have tried to come up with their own methods that they say are the true methods that Ptolemy used. The fact is that Ptolemy does not elaborate in detail, he just alludes to a method. Ptolemy does use the term ?ad Cardinem?, ?by using a Pole?. ?Cardinis? is a hinge, a pole or an axis and you see this term ?under the pole? crop up when others do directions based on Ptolemy. Ptolemy also does use the word ?Climatis? too, which doesn?t mean climate but the ?inclination of latitude.? So no matter how you read Ptolemy, you can see that he does mean that when you calculate a direction that you need to take into account the latitude of the natal chart. And his term ?with a Pole? hints at some higher math needs to be done.

I am so early into this work with directions. A lot has been written about the subject since Lilly?s time. What I want to do is to go back and look at how Lilly and others did them. I know that several people have told me that Lilly directed against the direction of the ecliptic. That just doesn?t seem to be his method. What I really want to see are other examples from the time period or before and not contemporary books that claim to represent how directions were done a long time ago. (Someone told me that Kolev said that Lilly directed in a clock-wise motion, but since I don?t have Kolev?s books in front of me, I?m not sure of that.) Then I want to try out their methods for myself to see what works and what doesn?t.

I learned Primary Directions from R. Zoller.
He, in turn, assigns his learning from Bonatti and Al-Biurini.
His seems to be in keeping with your Lilly. Except for the 3rd way of directing the significator to a promittor.

I keep these notes in my spreadsheet for the doing the math:
remember to use the angle closest to the promittor (whether it be a cusp/planet/even aspect -such as directing the MC or IC to what would be the degree of an partile trine or square of a moving planet) Take note of the quadrant the promittor is in when directing, this will determine whether the MC/IC or Asc/Dsc is used

DIRECTING BY RA
Arc of Direction = RAMC - RA of celestial body = Meridian Distance

DIRECTING BY OA
1) sin AD(ascensional difference) = (tan * declination) (tan * latitude of birthplace).
2) AD = sin-1 (sin AD) then convert Ascensional Declination Difference to hours, minutes
3) OA = RA +/- AD (+ South, - North)

Arc of Direction = OAAsc - OApromittor (note1: OAAsc = RAMC + 90?) note2: use the descendent's OA if closer to the promittor then the asc is).

DIRECTING BY DEGREES NOT ANGULAR
MD (using MC or IC whichever is closest to promittor)
SDA significator (which is being directed) = 90? +/- AD (+ North, - South. reverse in southern hemisphere)
SRC = RA promittor or aspect/body - RA significator (directed celestial body/lot/cusp)
SOR = OA promittor or aspect/body - OA significator (which is being directed)
DIA = SRC - SOR (or vice versa)
PRODUCT = DIA * MD
PP = PRODUCT/SDA
Arc of Direction: If SRC<SOR>SOR use SRC-PP = AOD.

What exactly is being done in the third way of Directing?
The rule tells us to find the Meridian Distance (MD) & save it for later use.
then we find the significator's semi diurnal arc (SDA) and likewise save it for later use.
then we take the right ascension of the significator from the right ascension of the place to which you direct. what remains we call the significator of the right circle and we save this.
then we take the oblique ascension of the significator from the oblique ascension of the region (ascendant/descendant). what remains is called the 'significator of the region."
This gives us two arcs. We then find the difference between them (DIA = Difference in Arc's).
Our next step is to multiply this difference in Arc's by the MD and divide the product by the SDA we found above.
*These last two steps (multiplying the difference by the MD and dividing the product by the SDA) is equivalent to multiplying the difference by a fraction in which the MD is the numerator and the SDA the denominator.

This gives a proportional part which is added to the Significator of the Right Circle (SRC) if the SRC is less than the Significator of the Region (SOR); otherwise, if the SRC is greater than the SOR, then subtract the proportional part from the SRC.
This equals the ARC of Direction. convert into time.


the above is all taught by R.Zoller in his DMA or MMAC courses.

A very long drawn out process. Can you imagine doing this with log tables? yechhh!

At first I found nothing to warrant all this work. But kept plugging away thinking noone is going to spend all that time working these if it's useless.

To date I have only used this on 5 charts. all of them in my family.
It was only recently that I could verify my mothers (through her mother, whose is also one of the 5 charts).
My grandmother's was uncanny. But then, she is quite the grandiose and her chart show's this. Her surgeries, accidents and life threatening episodes (she's 82 now) showed remarkably accurate (some coinciding with birth of children). As did the deaths of her two husbands and one marriage. Funny enough, her first marriage did not, but then I learn her father forced her into marriage (long story) at 14 in order to save her from the high school principle and so directed another promittor and wow!....very colorful life she has had.

anyway, I'm still in the learning process. But thought you might want know the other (3rd) way of directing.
By the way, they did converse directions also.

Tony, I see that we have slight difference is the directed arc. I have 28? 44?, while you have 27? 49?. Where do you get your oblique ascensions from? I?m trusting that web site I cited but who know how they calculate it.

Mark,

I did the calculations in a hurry and did not double check the results. I used the same website that you cited. It may be that I used the wrong latitude or interpolated incorrectly. In any case, I was trying to point out the need to direct the ASC to 0 SAG 26 to form a sextile by primary direction.

Tony

I am re-entering this because I cannot seem to correct that last line in the 3rd way of directing. I have tried multiple times but for some reason what is in the previous post is what stays......no matter how many times I have tried to edit it.

DIRECTING BY DEGREES NOT ANGULAR
MD (using MC or IC whichever is closest to promittor)
SDA significator (which is being directed) = 90? +/- AD (+ North, - South. reverse in southern hemisphere)
SRC = RA promittor or aspect/body - RA significator (directed celestial body/lot/cusp)
SOR = OA promittor or aspect/body - OA significator (which is being directed)
DIA = SRC - SOR (or vice versa)
PRODUCT = DIA * MD
PP = PRODUCT/SDA
Arc of Direction: If SRC<SOR>SOR use SRC-PP = AOD.
hmmm, I think it's the use of the less and greater then signs.
Arc of Direction: if src is less than sor use PP + Src
otherwise if SRC is greater than SOR use SRC-PP to = Arc of Direction.
What exactly is being done in the third way of Directing?
The rule tells us to find the Meridian Distance (MD) & save it for later use.
then we find the significator's semi diurnal arc (SDA) and likewise save it for later use.
then we take the right ascension of the significator from the right ascension of the place to which you direct. what remains we call the significator of the right circle and we save this.
then we take the oblique ascension of the significator from the oblique ascension of the region (ascendant/descendant). what remains is called the 'significator of the region."
This gives us two arcs. We then find the difference between them (DIA = Difference in Arc's).
Our next step is to multiply this difference in Arc's by the MD and divide the product by the SDA we found above.
*These last two steps (multiplying the difference by the MD and dividing the product by the SDA) is equivalent to multiplying the difference by a fraction in which the MD is the numerator and the SDA the denominator.

This gives a proportional part which is added to the Significator of the Right Circle (SRC) if the SRC is less than the Significator of the Region (SOR); otherwise, if the SRC is greater than the SOR, then subtract the proportional part from the SRC.
This equals the ARC of Direction. convert into time.


the above is all taught by R.Zoller in his DMA or MMAC courses.

A very long drawn out process. Can you imagine doing this with log tables? yechhh!

At first I found nothing to warrant all this work. But kept plugging away thinking noone is going to spend all that time working these if it's useless.

To date I have only used this on 5 charts. all of them in my family.
It was only recently that I could verify my mothers (through her mother, whose is also one of the 5 charts).
My grandmother's was uncanny. But then, she is quite the grandiose and her chart show's this. Her surgeries, accidents and life threatening episodes (she's 82 now) showed remarkably accurate (some coinciding with birth of children). As did the deaths of her two husbands and one marriage. Funny enough, her first marriage did not, but then I learn her father forced her into marriage (long story) at 14 in order to save her from the high school principle and so directed another promittor and wow!....very colorful life she has had.

anyway, I'm still in the learning process. But thought you might want know the other (3rd) way of directing.
By the way, they did converse directions also.

Wow! Thanks. I know how hard it is to enter all those formulas and make sure you got it right.

What does it mean to "degrees not angular"? Does this method only apply to non-angular planets, cusps and points?

Have you checked this method against what Lilly came up with? Not that Lilly is the ultimate yardstick, but I?m trying to help someone write some software and his goal is to have it match the results that Lilly produced for his merchant.

I?m not so good with abstract formulas. Can you give an example like I did? I know that?s a lot to ask for.

Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks! I?d make you some brownies if I knew where you live.

I hope this technical informations will be useful:

Oblique ascension: equatorial arc between Gamma point and the East point, at the ascending of that star (lato sensu). An object on equator will have OA=RA, with declination North OA=AR-AD(accessional difference). ?THIS IS FOR AS

For DS we have Oblique discension (logical)

Right ascension: equatorial arc between Gamma point and the projection of that star on equator. (So this is for MC)

For IC we have Right discension

I think we can use that only for directing cusps of houses. For planets we have to direct planets using their pole (so we would have Oblique ascension under planet pole)
Planet pole: meridian arc between North Pole and Horizon.
I have no idea how we get for example OA under planet pole.
Maybe someone knows and will be so kind to help

Sasha,

I hope this makes sense - I didn't understand a single word of that last post but that you so very much for putting it up there. It's not your fault at all. I feel like I've been airdropped into the middle of an advanced class, and I haven't taken the beginners class yet.

As I learn to take some baby steps, I'll ask some questions.

Thanks so much

Hello Mark,

I apologize for being so inappropriate. I saw that you spoke about OA RA and I thought it would be good to know what is oblique ascension, or right ascension. I wandered myself in past what is OA or RA.
My post was very eclectic because I didn?t have much time.

In order to establish the position of a point on the sky we have to take in consideration a reference. In the case of OA or RA this reference is the equator circle.
OA and RA are expressed in equatorial degrees (0 to 360 on the equator)and are used to determine the position of a point , even if that point has a correspondent degree on ecliptic (ecliptic being another reference circle wich can be used to determine the position of a point) . So we use equator as a reference in order to establish the position of certain point.
Gamma point is the vernal point (0 Aries).
Equatorial arc means a number of equatorial degrees.
In order to understand those terms I imagine a sphere (the celestial sphere as seen from a certain place on earth). Than I separate the sphere in two with the help of a circle (Horizon). Now standing in the middle of that Horizon circle I observe sphere wich is moving. From the east (AS) stars ascend (rise) - now the expression ?star rise? it?s apparent, because actually the sphere (earth) movement determines its rise -. After reaching its highest point in the sky the star starts to descend, and after a period of time (diurnal arc of that planet) sets (discension). At IC the star is discending right, then after passing IC starts to ascend, and finally rise again.
here is also a link:
http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~idh/ST ... kedeya.htm

Now in your example you used in order to direct ASC the tables of OA for the latitude of place (the pole of the point ASC).
The pole of a star at AS is the latitude of the place. The pole of that star at MC is zero.
So as a conclusion is logical to calculate for a planet on the MC its RA and not OA, or for a planet on the ASC the OA.
I hope I clarified my previous post

Ascensional difference of a planet at rising is the equatorial arc between Horizon and the projection of the planets position on the equator (in order to understand this you have to imagine celestial sphere as it is at a local place, or to look at a 3D image of celestial sphere)- remember that we measure along equator.

I insist with all this definition because I think that we must understand elementary astronomy and geometry of the sphere in order to become good astrologers in general and in particular to make good predictions (to understand the mechanism of primary directions)

Sasha,

Thank you so much for the definitions of the terms. That's just what I needed to know.

I'll have to read it several times before I understand it all but that's a big start.

Where did you learn all of this? Did you study with Robert Zoller?