Skyscript Astrology Forum

Tom and Granny responded to the mystery chart. Both were quite on target. Granny was almost psychic in pinpointing precise details of the mystery figure's life and reputation.

Here is the birth data:

Male born 29 November 1946 at 4 AM EST, at 22N53, 82W30.
ASC = 27 Libra 35
MC = 28 Cancer 03
Moon = 7 Aquarius 45.

Despite his fame and immense popularity, he suffered hardship for his political views at the hands of the Castro regime, including being sentenced to forced labor in his early 20s while at the same time growing in popularity and public recognition for this unique talents. Tom was correct on the timing of his rise to fame. I have put together a brief biography below.

The mystery figure is Silvio Rodriguez, a Cuban intellectual, musician, poet, and songwriter whose name is a household world through the Spanish-speaking world. I first discovered his music in the early 1990s and have been an avid fan ever since. Rolling Stone magazine has called his songs ?starkly beautiful.?

Silvio was born into a family of poor tobacco farmers in San Antonio de los Ba?os, Cuba, on 29 November 1946 at 4 AM. His father supported socialist causes and his mother was a hairdresser who loved music. She often sang to Silvio when he was a boy and he attributes much of his love of music to her. Silvio was given piano lessons at the age of 7.

In 1959 when Silvio was 13 years old, Fidel Castro?s revolution triumphed over the Batista regime in Cuba. Silvio and his peers were caught up in the revolutionary zeal. A highly intelligent and idealist youth interested in social change and rebuilding Cuba culturally, at the age of 15 he participated in the Cuban Literacy Campaign of 1961 ?in which hundreds of thousands of young people were able to reduce their country?s grave illiteracy rate to below 4% in one year alone. Not before and never again has a nation been capable of such a rapid, massive improvement in the cultural level of their people? (http://www.oceanbooks.com.au/literacy/lithome.html). Around this time he worked drawing comics for a magazine and a friend taught him to play the guitar.

He began composing songs and his guitar became a constant companion when he was in the army at the age of 18 in 1964. He left the army in 1967, having written numerous songs that were very popular among his comrades. His biographer Fausto Tav?rez states: ?He started writing songs that he would sing to the other soldiers until eventually his presence in cultural events became an obligation.? In 1967 he met musicians Pablo Milan?s and Noel Nicol? with whom he found the Nueva Trova musical movement in Cuba. His talent was recognized and he began to appear on television. The quality of his musical compositions and the polemical, revolutionary and highly independent lyrics became immensely popular among Cuban revolutionary youth.

Silvio was strongly influenced by musicians as diverse as Bob Dylan, the Beattles, and classical composers like Beethoven, Wagner, and Bach. He is often called the ?Bob Dylan? of Latin music. His lyrics often protest government oppression, tyranny, and colonization. His growing popularity among idealistic Cuban youth and the independent lyrics condemning government oppression got him in trouble with the Castro government?s new Culture Ministry, charged with controlling the thought of the masses in post-revolution Cuba. He was arrested after a concert in which he sang anti-communist songs and was sentenced to forced labor in 1968 (at age 22) on the fishing boat Playa Giron. His songs of this period subtly point out the hypocrisy of such government regulation.

Eventually the TV appearances during his 20s and the popularity of his music and messages of his songs turned him into a cultural icon of the leftist movements throughout Cuba and Latin America. Because of his clever, intelligent, and sophisticated lyrics, he is regarded as a poet as well as a songwriter. His resentment of government oppression as expressed in his songs has led to his being banned by dictatorial regimes over the years in Latin America. His concerts are so popular that they are often held in football stadiums to accomodate the tens of thousands who turn out for his live performances.

Dictatorial regimes have considered singing or listening to Silvio's songs a crime. In 1979 folk singer Mercedes Sosa was arrested in Argentina along with her audience for performing Silvio's music with its leftist anti-totalitarian lyrics. She went into exile in Europe until the change in government in Argentina. Her musical interpretations of Silvio's music are powerfully moving.

In 2003 Silvio was elected to the Cuban parliament and according to the article in wikipedia, Silvio ?is regarded as one of the most influential intellectuals in present-day Cuba.? He recently (Dec 2006) gave a concert in Cuba as part of the belated celebration of Castro's 80th birthday. Still an idealist with socialist values, he commented that Cuba "needs changes. Not changes to capitalism, we need to deepen socialism."

Hi Tony,

I seem to recall Lilly regarding Saturn as the author of mischief and that Saturn's joy in the 12th had to do with his ability to do mischief when so placed. Serial killing would qualify as a type of mischief.

Can't argue that, but as the owner of a retrograde Saturn in Leo in the 12th (day chart) I wince a bit having something in common with Ted Bundy; he was born couple of years before me, and so has a lot in common, astrologically, with baby boomers. I think Bundy's Saturn being in a night chart and being the only planet above the horizon squaring all those Scorpio planets helped do him in. I have this marcabe interest in serial killers, but only because I've never been touched by one directly or indirectly.

I'm beginning to realize the problems that I've had using Rumen Kolev's primary directions program (Placidus) are, like most problems, more of my own making. Kolev tosses in everything he knows about primaries (a considerable amount) into the program, yet if the astrologer limits himself to this or that technique, the results are intriguing. Just for the record, the accuracy of the birth time is critical for primary directions calculated by computer. I may seem extremely liberal with the timing, but that's because of the generally suspicious approach I take to on the hour birth times. Kolev recomends rectification (to the second) of the birth, but since I don't know the gentleman in question I can't ask the necessary questions, nor do I feel like spending hours on the computer looking for stuff. So here goes:

He began composing songs and his guitar became a constant companion when he was in the army at the age of 18 in 1964.

May John Frawley and the traditionalists forgive me. but in 1964 Neptune crossed this man's ASC by converse direction. I'm not much on Neptune and music however. I think of Venus and Mercury. Neptune however is, according to John and some things I've seen, associated as much with mass slaughter as touchy-feely new age stuff. For example, and I'm going by memory, in Patton's pre-natal eclipse Neptue is prominent, I think on the MC. Also for those who believe that planets rule the things that happened when they were discovered (I don't) Neptune was discovered in 1846 about the time of the invention of the first WMD, the Gattling Gun followed shortly by the first total wars, the Crimean and American Civil Wars.

I'm not arguing that this man had any such experiences in 1964, but rather that Neptune is as likely to indicate things military as things artistic, and this man did both at the time of this direction. Make of it what you will.

He left the army in 1967, having written numerous songs that were very popular among his comrades. His biographer Fausto Tav?rez states: ?He started writing songs that he would sing to the other soldiers until eventually his presence in cultural events became an obligation.?

About this time, a little earlier really, Jupiter, lord 5, crossed his ASC by primary direction. Notice, too the Jupiter - Mars mutual reception and the man combined his music and his political beliefs (Venus is conjunct Jupiter), with his military carrer. I wish I was good enough to see this stuff before knowing who the native is

His growing popularity among idealistic Cuban youth and the independent lyrics condemning government oppression got him in trouble with the Castro government?s new Culture Ministry, charged with controlling the thought of the masses in post-revolution Cuba. He was arrested after a concert in which he sang anti-communist songs and was sentenced to forced labor in 1968 (at age 22) on the fishing boat Playa Giron. His songs of this period subtly point out the hypocrisy of such government regulation.

So he is still in Cuba. I misunderstood that part. I think I have it now.

At this time Venus, his ASC ruler crossed his ASC by primary direction. Again this is a liberal interpretation of "at this time", but his independence of thought is emerging. It also landed him in confinement and Venus is conjunct Mercury ruler of the 12th house. I'm sure his protest songs were subtle. His very survival depended on it. This is a grim reminder of the wild differences between protesting in a free country, like the US and protesting in an authoritarian society that needs slave labor to survive economically cf Cindy Sheehan being fined for trespassing recently for an activity that could have had her in front of a firing squad in Cuba.

His concerts are so popular that they are often held in football stadiums to accomodate the tens of thousands who turn out for his live performances.

Jupiter in the natal first is the exaltation ruler of the 10th

"needs changes. Not changes to capitalism, we need to deepen socialism."

This is sad. Cuba was the most prosperous nation in the Caribbean under Batista (not a good guy by any means); it is now the poorest and has no hope of getting better by deepening socialism, much less by the knee jerk blaming of the US embargo. Cuba trades with virtually every advanced Western Nation in Europe, and still can't emerge from the Third World status she once surpassed. There has never been and never will be a successful socialist economy. The only success of socialism has been in deluding its adherents into believing "real socialism has never bbe tried," a battle cry I've been hearing since high school. It has and it always ends up the same way: persecuting, imprisoning, and killing people like Mr. Rodriguez.

Lest we think this is a political aside it has an astrological purpose. I think it was about 1968 a man named Artur London wrote a book called The Confession. This book detailed the horror of his arrest, brainwashing, and finally a confession to a "crime" or "crimes" he did not commit. This is not an easy book to read as it descriptions of the torture and abuse make Orwell's 1984 look like a walk in the park and of course The Confession is non-fiction. He not only signed a logically consistent "confession" of his "crimes" he ended up believing he had done these horrible things - things he hadn't done at all! Yet at the end of it all, despite the horror of his treatment and the inevitable joining of socialism with authoritarianism in his own country (Eastern European I cannot recall which one), he remained a communist. I cannot understand this any more than I can understand a decent man as Mr. Rodriguez seems to be still believing in a political and economic system that he whose atrocities and other failures he has witnessed and experienced first hand.

Maybe it's in his and London's chart. I don't get it.

Good choice, Tony.

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for your comments. They were very illuminating. You're right that primaries depend on a precise birth time. As I mentioned in the initial post, I had an opportunity several years ago to ask Silvio Rodriguez for his birth time, so the 4 AM comes directly from him. I don't know the exact source of this time (birth certificate, mother's memory, etc). Most likely it is not exact, but the chart does seem to match his life story.

The Saturn in Leo retrograde in the 10th certainly corresponds to difficulties with those in authority. Your discussion of "manners" pegged him as a poet or musician.

His 12th is ruled by Mercury, but Morin would also say that Venus is a ruler of the 12th since a good part of Libra lies in the 12th. (Al Biruni also regarded planets ruling parts of signs in a house as co-rulers of the house.) In this sense both Venus and Mercury as 12th rulers prominent in the 1st could suggest possible imprisonment, especially in connection with his career. They conjoin Jupiter which rules the 10th by exaltation. The medievalists thought that exaltation rulers indicated dramatic events with regard to the house that they rule by exaltation. His forced labor certainly qualifies as a dramatic event related to his career.

Tony

I don't know the exact source of this time (birth certificate, mother's memory, etc). Most likely it is not exact, but the chart does seem to match his life story.

The whole birth time thing is a problem for me because we have instances of people using times 20 or more minutes different than the birth certificate that produce accurate timing of events. I know a birth certificate time can be off but 20 minutes is a lot.

As an aside the wife of a friend of mine is an operating room nurse and has been for quite some time. She has participated in many deliveries. She told me that in both hospitals she woked in the administration was quite strict about getting birth times correct. So if you were born in either Portsmouth NH or York, Maine, your birth time is accurate.

But here is the problem with the primaries even with an accurate birth time. Let's use Mr. Rodriguez chart, and Placidan mundo primary directions to the angles, and we'll use Venus directed to his Libra ASC.

Using Ptolemy's "key" of one degree of arc equals one year of life the hit occurs on October 8, 1971. If we use Cardan's key the hit occurs on Feb 7, 1972. If we use Naibod, the hit occurs Feb 17, 1972. If we use Placidus' key the hit occurs on July 30, 1969! There are others and all the hits occur between 1970 and 1971, but the total range is from July 30, 1969 to Feb 17, 1972 - almost 2 and one half years. We can say there is an important period in his life that occurs between 1969 and 1972, but we need to strive for more accuracy than that. And this is all without changing the birth time or the calculation method. A five minute change in birth time will result in the hits occuring two years before or after the ones above depenindg if the time is sooner or later.

This then is our problem with primaries and unless a rectification is done using accurately timed events, we have to use a large fudge factor with them.

Your discussion of "manners" pegged him as a poet or musician.

This is a neglected area of importance, or at least I think so. Dorian Greenbaum was going to write a follow - up book to her work on temperament with one on significator of manners, but right now she is all tied up studying for her PhD.

His 12th is ruled by Mercury, but Morin would also say that Venus is a ruler of the 12th since a good part of Libra lies in the 12th.

Yes and I agree with that. Notice too that Pisces holds the vast majority of his 5th house of creativity and Jupiter is in the 1st in Scorpio. Based on what you said there is what might be called a "dark" or even subversive sie to his artistic work, that was born out in practice.

In this sense both Venus and Mercury as 12th rulers prominent in the 1st could suggest possible imprisonment, especially in connection with his career.

Noted. Actually I saw this and almost mentioned it but I wasn't sure if I read it in Morin or elsewhere. I like the idea though and this chart is a great example.

The medievalists thought that exaltation rulers indicated dramatic events with regard to the house that they rule by exaltation. His forced labor certainly qualifies as a dramatic event related to his career.

Yes, and I would also argue it signifies his success, another Jupiter word. My knee jerk reaction to exaltation is "excess." This is not always a negtive. Was it the Duchess of Windsor who once said "You can't be too smart, too thin, or too rich(?)" Or something like that. But drama is a really good way to think of it and I'll try to remember that as well.

This chart will be a tough act to follow.

Tom

Tom,

I was looking at the Almuten figuris (Ibn Ezra's method) regarding the question of oriental/occidental and checked the Almuten figuris (chart ruler by the planet having the most dignities in the five principal places of the chart) for Bundy and Rodriguez.

Both have Jupiter as the Almuten figuris or chart ruler. For Bundy the Sun is a close second, and for Rodriguez Saturn is a close second.

It is striking in Bundy's chart that his Almuten figuris Jupiter is mutually applying to an almost exact square with the modern ex-planet Pluto in the undortunate 12th. Bundy's Mars is closely semi-sextile Jupiter, being 30 degrees away. I find the semi-sextile to be a troublesome aspect since there is no way to integrate the principles of the two planets involved. It seems fitting that Mars and Pluto -- both associated with violence and killing -- should be so closely linked to the Almuten figuris, the dominant planet in the chart of this serical killer. In addition, Bundy's Moon/Mars conjunction is quincunx his MC.

Rodriguez also has a square from Almuten figuris Jupiter to Pluto but Pluto occupies the 10th, a "good" house; and it is now a separating aspect rather than a mutually applying square as in Bundy's chart. Mars is not semi-sextile to Jupiter in Silvio's chart, so the combined influence of Mars and Pluto does not affect his chart ruler Jupiter. Rodriguez Moon is trine Neptune, whereas Bundy's Moon is square Neptune.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Interesting stuff. All the more since Bundy's Jupiter rules the 8th house of death, while Rodriguez Jupiter rules 3 and 5. Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of Rodriguez 10th and Bundy's 12th.

Bundy's Mars is closely semi-sextile Jupiter, being 30 degrees away. I find the semi-sextile to be a troublesome aspect since there is no way to integrate the principles of the two planets involved.

I noticed that when I first started in astrology that far from being partially beneficial because it is half a sextile that semi-sextiles when active produced more difficult events than good ones. I stopped using minor aspects a while ago, but I have to admit the ones you brought up are intriguing. It's also interesting that both Jupiter and Mars appear to be very swift in motion at this time in 1946 further emphasizing the influence of those planets.

Tom

I stopped using minor aspects a while ago

I only use minor aspects when they are very close. In the previous mystery chart of Ed Wood what struck me first was the virtual exact semi-sextile of Neptune to the ASC. Modern astrologers associate Neptune with Hollywood but also with alcoholism, escapism, illusion, deception, and denial. With hindsight I could see how these themes played out in his life.

In Bundy's chart Mars is closely semi-sextile Jupiter. Mars conjoins the South lunar node, which Lilly regarded as a malefic influence. Mars rules the 6th by exaltation and is a co-ruler with Jupiter of the 8th since Aries is partly contained in the 8th house, which has Pisces on the cusp. And speaking of Neptune, there is an almost exact semi-square of Neptune to Bundy's ASC.

Tony

Thanks for the name, I was thinking that this persons writing would be interesting to read. I bet if I look I can find some recordings somewhere. And living in Southern CA, I am certain I can find a good translator to help me read his works. Not that I will necessarily agree with him, but idealists generally have interesting thoughts that force the reader to think as well.

Granny