hello everyone, I cast a horary this evening asking whether I would find romance this year, and am pretty sure it looks like a good solid yes, but would like to see if you agree with my interpretation.

The chart is cast for 9.02pm, Belfast, Ireland, Feb 16th 07.

Libra rises and my significator Venus is in its dignity of Pisces in the 6th. The 7th house is Aries,and its ruler Mars in its dignity in Capricorn in 4th. Venus and Mars are sextile. This, therefore looks promising! I would posit that this either means a man from my past, or from my hometown maybe? And does the fact that my sig is sextile to Mars mean that I know the guy already?

Looking at the moon, it is in Aquarius (rather an impersonal sign for romance) but located firmly in the 5th, which bodes well. Neptune is close by suggesting over-idealising the romance, but the Moon is sextile jolly Jupiter in the 3rd, in its sign. Clouding this, however, is that the ruler of the 5th is Saturn, in the 11th, which suggests problems. But, considering the ruler of the 7th is strong, can this be disregarded?

Any of you out there any clues as to when/where this could take place?

Best,
Minnie

Hi Minnie,

I wish you happiness in your quest for love. However, there are a few things in your horary that make me less optimistic about the chart.

Its true both the your significator (Venus) and the seventh house ruler (Mars) are well dignified. However, from the data I have these planets are not in an applying sextile but rather in a separating aspect. In horary this refers to something in the past rather than the future. The motion of Venus is taking it away from Mars and out of Pisces into Aries where it is much weaker. Venus is also about to square Pluto before it leaves Pisces. Of course, if you have already met this person that might allow a different interpretation. Still the other applying aspects don't look so promising to me.

Your co-ruler the Moon is yes about to aspect Neptune indicating possible rose tinted glasses about the matter. Moreover, the moon shortly after this is in opposition to saturn which rules both the 4th house and 5th house. As the Moon is ruled by Saturn this arguably makes the opposition less difficult.

However, the Moon is also in the sun's beams in the 5th house and will soon be combust the Sun. The Sun rules the 11th house in your chart which often represents your hopes in the matter. Traditionally , the approaching conjunction of the Moon and Sun ( New moon) is an unfavorable time to begin any enterprise other than matters done in secrecy and darkness!

Some astrologers do use the Sun in relationship horaries as a secondary indicator of the man concerned and Venus as the woman. Venus is of course already your main significator. There is no aspect between the Sun and Venus so that doesn't provide much evidence either.

All the fifth house 'action' may indicate something happening but I doubt it it would amount to the longer term 7th house type relationship you may be seeking right now.

Mark

Hi Minnie,

I remember Deb telling us that if you're asking about romance in a general way, without anyone specific in mind, the 5th house represents the quesited. All that action in the 5th, therefore, would suggest that you will have romantic activity this year. The Moon's opposition to Saturn, L.5th, suggests it might have its difficult moments, although the fact that Saturn receives the Moon eases things. Venus, your signif. is exalted in the 6th house. I'm wondering if it's someone at work you get involved with.

Two very good signs are the part of fortune in the 1st house and best of all you asked your question in the Venus hour of Venus day and you are Venus ... your hour has come!

I am not aware of Deb ever stating we should dispense with the L7 in a relationship horary. What is your source for that statement? I suspect you are confusing her with Lee Lehman who has very controversially suggested this for 'non-live in' relationships'?

Traditional astrological sources such as Lilly make it clear that seventh house and its ruler represents not just wives or husbands but also 'sweethearts'.

The way I was taught the potential partner is L7, the quality or activity of that relationship is L5.

However, the 5th house on its own only describes the physical activity of sex without the support of L7 indicating something more substantial.

Maybe the problem is that 'romance' is sometimes used for a euphemism for something more basic.

Mark

Hi Mark,

No it was definitely Deb who said to several of us at her horary course last summer that if there is no specific other in the picture but one is only asking if one will find romance in a general way then you should look at the relationship between L.1 and L.5. I haven't read Lee Lehmann on the subject.

Hi Mark and Alanna,

Appreciate your interpretations, thanks a million. I suppose I should clarify a bit more what I meant by my horary: I've recently split from a longterm boyfriend, and this year want to have some fun! I doubt if I'm looking for a serious relationship, but who knows if the right guy comes along??? I guess then we are looking primarily at 5th house action, if Alanna is correct..

So, you both seem to think at least there will be some romance this year! Would you go by the position of Venus in the 6th to suggest where - as Alanna did, in specifying work? And any ideas as to his identity? The opposition to Saturn does seem to suggest it won't be as casual as it might appear..

Many thanks again,
Minnie

mmmm still, the experience represented by the 5th would be impossible without the 7th person, wouldn't it??

I can never remember what I?ve said, so all opinions on that are valid. What I probably meant to say was that the 5th house has a general theme of romance, therefore it can be relevant in showing a state of romance or romantic conditions; however, if a question is asked about the prospect of a relationship with another person, then that person would be 7th house. Seeing the 1st or 7th house ruler in the 5th house can show them being romantic (or perhaps show that they are looking for romance more than marriage); and it can show romantic distraction too. Sorry if I have confused you about that Alanna, but the way that Mark has approached this chart is very similar to what I would have done. That said, this is not the kind of question that I generally take on anyway ? because I believe that horary is much more reliable when asking about a concern that affects us in the here and now.

Actually when I first looked at this chart, after reading the first few posts, my feelings were that this chart says more about the end of a relationship than the beginning of a new one. (1st & 7th rulers separating, Moon opp Saturn and moving into the end of its cycle with the Sun). There is definitely a theme of romantic expectation here (Libra rising, Venus exalted in Pisces, Moon conjunct Neptune); but Venus is blighted by its weak position in the 6th house, and the Moon-Neptune conjunction in the 5th is opposed by retrograde Saturn as the 5th house ruler. I agree that romance is ?in the air?, but the implications of that don?t look too promising. And with Saturn so prominent you have to wonder whether the chart is trying to say ?stop thinking like a romantic. Look at why such an essentially dignified Venus is weakened in the 6th, and the difficulties of the Moon (also 10th house ruler)?. Harsh I know, but Saturn is usually a reminder of the need to be realistic and grounded in our expectations.

Hi Deb,

Just to jog your memory ... you said that the 5th would be the house to look at in questions about romance that didn't have a specific person in mind to my roommate, J, when she showed you a chart she had done on such a question that seemed to have turned out wrong when she used the 7th house. It was "after hours", in your kitchenette at the Seekers Trust, not in class. So, just so I have this straight, if someone asks a general "will I find romance?" with no particular person in mind, we still look at the 7th?

Hi,

I?m sorry, I?ve been trying to remember, but the best I can come up with is the feeling that there is something that I ought to be able to remember! I don?t dispute that I would have advised considering the 5th house, but it sounds completely out of character for me to suggest that you ignore the 7th house.

I think this issue could generate confusion because of the presumption of what the word romance means. The 5th house describes the general principle of romance, so I guess there could be an argument either way ? ie,. ?I am asking about romance not a relationship, so the 5th is important?. On the other hand, isn?t the desire for a relationship implicit in the desire for romance? That is, my feeling is that when people ask about the prospect of romance, they are really asking about the prospect of having a romantic relationship, so how can the relevance of the 7th house be removed? In addition, although we aim to identify main significators, most situations involve a consideration of a number of factors. For example, if someone asks about a career question, it is not *just* a matter of 1st and 10th house connections; we should also consider the implications of the 2nd house because career matters generally go hand in hand with financial matters, and a lot of other houses too as they relate to that question.

Your first post mentions the 5th house as representing the quesited. The problem is we have only a vague understanding of who or what the quesited is here. Unless we are assuming that it comes in the guise of a relationship with another person, then romance might be found by a trip to the cinema or a romantic novel. This chart has a lot of emphasis around the 5th house and I am not suggesting that should be ignored, or even that it is not a major consideration; only that the signification of the 7th ruler is important too ? and especially here because the most recently separated aspect of the asc-ruler is the sextile to Mars which rules the 7th.

However, even if we ignored the 7th house and its ruler completely, the theme is still the same. The exalted Venus in Pisces is weakly placed by house and making no positive applications. The Moon in the 5th is peregrine and USB, applying to the conjunction of Neptune and then the opposition of Saturn ? the 5th house ruler. I don?t see a one-sided reception able to turn that difficult theme around, especially given that the 5th house ruler is not only malefic, but also peregrine, in detriment and retrograde. Hence I tend to agree with Mark?s analysis of this chart, even though I realise it is a harsh response to give to any romantic.

Hope this helps to clarify my position, whilst realising that others will have their own valid views.
Deb

Thanks for clarifying that, Deb. The chart certainly does look different with the 7th house rep. the question. It looks like a longing for romance that takes place in the context of a recently ended relationship, as you and Mark say. However Minnie does say she?s not looking for anything serious ?

I have a question: what are we to make of both signifiers being dignified and in separating sextile? That the separation was amicable with both parties behaving well?

Thanks for clarifying your position Deb.

Irrespective of the the L7 / L5 issue I agree completely that you cannot give a really positive judgement here due to the position and applying aspects of the Moon. One thing you teach which I have found invaluable is the great importance of the Moon in delineation of any horary.

I hope I didn't appear too harsh. Perhaps I need to work on my diplomacy skills. I hope I am not part of that malefic Saturn!

Mark