Skyscript Astrology Forum

I just completed a master level course in CHAOS and was introduced to Fractals, which I believe offer a working hypothesis regarding how Astrology works --

If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other -- the electron shield equivalent to the planetary structure -- then the as above so below metaphor is no longer metaphor, there is connective tissue of some sort between the atom & the solar system & the universe -- and astrology mediates how the planetary shield interacts with its members (us) and the core (sun). I sure wish I knew more math though.

The fractals around inhabit fractional dimensions (hence the name) somewhere between two and three dimensions since they are generated mathematically with complex numbers (combination of real and imaginary number)

Astrology is more complexly interdimensional since we, of course, interrelate time and space.

Hi SG,

Have you read Bernadette Brady's book on chaos, fractals etc? It's reviewed here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rev_chaos.html

It would be interesting to hear where your ideas differ from Bernadette's.

Garry

Hi SG,

Congratulations on completing the course!

Fractals remind me of Mandalas and Persian carpets.

If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other -- the electron shield equivalent to the planetary structure -- then the as above so below metaphor is no longer metaphor, there is connective tissue of some sort between the atom & the solar system & the universe --

Seems reminiscent of a transition from linear back to circular conceptions which was how ancient, indigenous thinkers conceived of the world/universe ... instead of squaring the circle, circling the square.

The connective tissue/fabric you mention I believe was also reflected classically by the fifth element "aether" or in today's terms "quintessence" and the realms of "dark energy" - "dark matter" with its gravitation effects on visible matter.

Metaphors are usually used to explain that which is inherently complex in simple terms that allow for various minds to comprehend the core principle, eg. to be understood by both those with auditory-sequential (or 'linear') leaning minds and visual-spatial ('circular') leaning minds.
I believe "the as above, so below" metaphor will remain as a metaphor for as long as language and the need to use language for instilling understanding exists. This particular metaphor embracing the 'all' and based upon wholistic thinking.

and astrology mediates how the planetary shield interacts with its members (us) and the core (sun).

As astrology explains/interprets via orderly set of symbols how the universe and all its various components work and inter-relate, it seems to me that in translating this today mathematically what's being considered are the workings of the same 'body' but simply interpreting/explaining via an updated set of symbols from one division, which today also involves the use of a lot more symbols.

At the heart of this being the nature of the universe and all it contains (which includes us), the order to it and how it works.

Guess it's probably because I see astrology as a discipline not separate to maths as it contains the discipline of maths, as well as the other universal modes of expression.

Having said that, wish my maths was better too - something to keep working at I guess.

Kind regards,
TS.

Yeah, I bought Bernadette's book and somewhat put off by her extreme subjectivity. Also the take she has on bifurcation is not what went down in class but again, her own subjective interpretation of it, additional to championing a scientist that the authors assigned in my class refuted -- though I did cite her in the bibliography for the paper I wrote for the class.

Her whole rap on Tiamet was interesting -- then therein she cited Marduk, but paid no homage whatsoever to Hamurabi, his priest Kat-Archon -- and the king that changed Babylon from a city to an empire -- well, I'd just taken a course on Mesopotamian Mythology -- and got really excited about Tablet 5 of the Epic of Creation which is pretty much the mandate for astrology. The As Above so Below central premise of our art & craft set forth here, where Hamurabi is Marduk's earthly agent and planet Jupiter Marduk's heavenly agent.

I found her book disappointing and while somewhat helpful, not what I'd hoped for.

If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other ....

That's rather a big 'if' isn't it SG?

I though fractals were a feature of complex systems exhibiting non-linear dynamics. How much non-linearity is evident from looking at an ephemeris?

Au contraire, it's the paragon of linearity and the absence of chaos. You have to go into the tumbling behaviour of asteroids, or extrapolate the cycle of Pluto for millions of years to see the potential for chaos in the solar system. It's currently at dynamic equilibrium. Which is why the sun rises in the morning on cue.

Now as regards life here on earth, well that's another matter. Chaos and order procreating all over the place. Non-linearity reigns. Fractals everywhere.

I haven't read Bernadette Brady's book, though in the mid 1990s I did some collaborative work with one of the guys who originally got the mathematics of chaos together in the 1980s - Prof. Ralph Abraham who wrote 'Dynamics: the Geometry of Behaviour'.

I came to the conclusion from spending time with Ralph that chaos theory has little to say about astrology the tool, but a lot to say about how it should be applied, especially for predictive work. He, on the other hand, got very interested in astrology as divination .....

All the best,

Bill

chaos theory has little to say about astrology the tool, but a lot to say about how it should be applied, especially for predictive work.
Bill

You have made an essetial distinction: how can we reach an understanding of how or why Astrology works if we do not have first a clear grasp of how astrological tools and procedures are built (their "engineering")?

There is a fundamental difference between Astrology the tool (or technology) and the act of interpretation or "reading", the application of Astrology to a specific task in a specific context.

I think the essence of Astrology, like the clock or the calendar, is the opposite of chaos, but we 1-) apply this tool to a chaotic or very complex reality, and 2-) often use this tool chaotically, in order to--in both cases-- create "fractals of meaning" in our minds.

Juan

Well, Bill, maybe you thought wrong.

Apparently the early cosmologists (Newton & post) warped their brains thinking through 3 entity physics -- 2 entities predictable, enter the third and outcome up for grabs -- nonlinearity was not a defining attribution of a chaotic state --

Cantor equations are linear.

which presented an interesting set of possibilities worthy of exploration. The 4 Letters -- CATG -- which are comprised of 4 elements plus a fifth -- nitrogen -- one wonders about our 4 elements -- air water earth & fire, if there's any correspondence

There's got to be a dna string that came in early in development of living organisms -- the quotidian string that is sensitized to day/night -- that's got to be hardwired -- that solar (sun above or below horizon), since life began in the sea the tidal rhythms -- lunar sensitivity -- has to be hardwired into very primitive life forms & passed down. My mother and I have the same angle between venus & mars -- 77 degrees. Certain astronomical sensitivities are built into the genome -- which is, if you will, a translation of a cosmic fractal into a biological one -- a crossing of dimensions ... the cosmos casting its face upon the living waters.

Sonja

Google "Michelle Jacobs". She was onto the interactions of fractals and astrology 10 years ago. Some of her material may still be available. I think Dennis Elwell also hit the subject in the same general timeframe in The Cosmic Loom.

SGFoxe wrote:The 4 Letters -- CATG -- which are comprised of 4 elements plus a fifth -- nitrogen -- one wonders about our 4 elements -- air water earth & fire, if there's any correspondence

Those four letters stand for Cytosine, Adenine, Thymidine and Guanine, which are the set of 'nucleobases' which bond together initially as pairs (A-T, C-G) and then in various sequences to form the helical structure of DNA in spceific genes. As bases, they are each comprised of four chemical elements, which are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. When they are bonded together as a DNA structure, there is a fifth element involved, phosphorous. For example, the adenine nucleobase acquires three phosphate groups and becomes the 'nucleotide' adenosine triphosphate.

It's hard to imagine a correspondence between the four nucleobases and the Four Elements, other than a numerical one. This is because the four nucleobases have no immediately obvious differentiating qualities as individual entities, whatever about the highly esoteric and subtle differences in their biochemical properties. They are simply a set of functionally similar molecules with varying amounts of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen combined into four structural arrangements.

On the other hand, the link which can be made between the Four Elements (from which, in various combinations, all matter is constituted in the the Western pre-scientific world view) and the four known states of matter in modern science - solid, liquid, gas and plasma - is imaginally compelling.

Certain astronomical sensitivities are built into the genome -- which is, if you will, a translation of a cosmic fractal into a biological one -- a crossing of dimensions

It sounds like you are suggesting a physical causal model for astrological influences here, which is one way to go, but also one not without its difficulties when trying to develop the model.

Leaving aside the issue of the processes involved in the coupling of the astronomical and genetic levels, one problem concerns the implications such a model has for limiting the scope of contexts to which astrology can be applied. It is common for astrologers to be working with contexts in which the salient entities don't have genes, such as governments, constitutions, businesses, sports contests, the asking of questions, and so on. On the other hand, these entities or events do have horoscopes which they are associated with.

Even if there is a complex resonance of some kind between the heavens and animals which plays a part in determining character (which also presupposes an arguable genetic-level determination of character), this cannot be central to the nature of the astrological process as indicated by what astrologers actually do.

Bill

SGFoxe
I have no problem accepting your theory of how fractals connect to Astrology, great minds think alike they say.
Fractals repeat the same pattern over and over, within and without, endlessly. The whole universe is a fractal and everything within it and without it. The rule applies to the universe as a whole, you can't separate your own individual earthly existence from the fundamental law of creation.
You can see the same structure in an atom, of positive electrons, negative electrons and neutral neutrons in Astrology with positive, negative and neutral signs and planets.
Astrology is symmetrical with the basic structure of the universe, based on fractals.

Hello, this is my first post on this forum, I apologize for my English, it is not my primary language and I don't practice it often, but I will try to explain myself as best as I possibly can.

I am Diplomed by the Faculty of Astrological Studies since I was 19 years old. Today, twenty years later, I see that most of major astrology sites continue providing an old fashioned explanation of astrology based in the ancient belief of "planetary forces" and this hurts our profession as well as the view of it by the general public, and what is even worst, we'll never be taken seriously by the scientific community with this kind of approach.

I think is very important for astrologers to realize that planets doesn't exercise any direct influence on people, but instead that exists a proven correlation between planetary positions at birth -and through life- and personal potential and the development of social and human cycles on earth. I point to Jung's model of synchronicity and Gauquelin's (& Ertel) scientific proof of this correlation at birth.

Professional astrologers and astrological institutions have a responsibility on this and the way how the profession is being portrayed to the general public.

Just an opinion,

Sonia