Skyscript Astrology Forum

Dear All,

I have been doing research on intelligence from a traditional astrological perspective and especially on the Part of Reasoning (pars rationis et sensus) for a year or so. I have so far been able to collect and analyse some 25 birth data from high IQ societies and some data pertaining to eminent geniuses like Einstein, Da Vinci, Tesla, John Nash etc. Interesting findings will be published in the future.

As you know, Part of Reasoning is given by the formula:

PoR = Asc + Mars - Mercury for a diurnal nativity, and as Asc + Mercury - Mars for a nocturnal nativity.

Until recently I only had the electronic edition of Robert Zoller's translation, Bonatti On The Arabic Parts. Now I have Dykes' complete translation of Bonatti's Liber Astronomie and I see that two texts (translations) differ considerably at one crucial paragraph where the author explains conditions to be satisfied for high intelligence.

For those who have Dr.Dykes' translation, the text is given in page 1054 (Book II) with a valuable footnote from Bonatti's source Abu Mashar. Difference in translation between Zoller and Dykes and the footnote itself made it necessary for me to re-evaluate the issue. Presently I favor Dr.Dykes's translation for technical reasons after comparison with the data in hand. I'm sorry I cannot give the reasons here at this moment in order not to digress; it is lengthy and subject of maybe a separate article to discuss all reasons.

But for a complete and true understanding of this Part I strongly need to have Abu Mashar's writing on this specific Part. So, if anyone of you have Abu Mashar's original text in English [which I think is given as translated in the "Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology" which I do not possess], please do send it to me at project.astrogenius@gmail.com, or in reply to this post.

Please double check the punctuation before sending and make sure you have copied the text exactly including the punctuation marks as it is going to be very important for my reaching a correct understanding. Please also give the complete reference for the text.

Many thanks in advance.

Sigma

Dear Tom,

Great. Thanks for the help. For the moment I only need the text for the Part of Reasoning. I'll wait for it until the wekend. Later I plan to buy the book(s).

Regards.

Sigma

Dear Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to investigate the matter.

I think the translation given in the footnote in page 1054 of Book of Astronomy belongs to Dykes himself that he did directly from the original Latin manuscript of Abu Mashar's Liber Maioris ad Scientiam Indiciorum Astrorum (Great Introduction to the Knowledge of the Judgements of the Stars). No 'complete' translation of this book (only some parts) into English seems to be available.

So I will suffice myself with what is already available (Zoller's translation from Bonatti, Dykes translation from Bonatti and Dykes partial translation given in the footnote therewith) until someone translates relevant sections that contain arabic lots, or at least the Part of Reasoning, in Abu Mashar's Great Introduction.

Tom:

None of these works give delineations. Paulus is a little more Helpful in this regard, but Olympiodorus, Al Biruni, and Abu Mashar are virtually silent when it comes to explanations.

Fortunately I know how to delineate arabic parts including especially the Part of Reasoning. See a sample delineation I gave at

http://astro-genius.blogspot.com/ (Use the dropdown to read the text linked to google document, as it gives almost a full blank page when opened until you slide the dropdown to reach the chart and following delineation)

That is by reference to my past understanding of Zoller's translation given in Bonatti On Arabic Parts. Dykes' recent translation of Bonatti, however, has changed my current understanding a bit, so I need to revise the previous delineation and add a different version based on Dykes' translation.

Thanks again anyway.

Sigma

The Greater Introduction of Ab? Ma??ar was published by R. J. Lemay (Naples, 1995), but I suspect it is quite difficult to access. Nevertheless, the excerpt about the Part of Reasoning in an edition (Augustae Vindelicorum, 1489) of a Latin translation made by Hermann of Carinthia runs as follows (Liber VIII, Cap. IV de partibus signorum):

Tercia [pars] sensus et rationis, quoniam Mercurius sunt ingenium, memoria, discretio, eloquentia, sapientia. Mars vero acumen, vigilantia, levitas: die quidem a Mercurio ad Martem, nocte e converso sumpta ab oriente incipit. Ducit igitur uterque mutatione ad sensum, discretionem, eloquentiam et sapientiam sique vel ipsa vel dominus eius cum orientis domino fuerit pariter cum aliquo loci testimonio. Mercurio forti respecta copiosae rationis summique ingenii promissum est, si Marte, multi acuminis et perspicacitatis.

Very roughly, it can be translated in this way:

The third Part is of sense and reasoning, as Mercury is talent, memory, ability of discern, eloquence and wisdom, Mars is, however, sharpness of mind, rapt and quickness in thinking. [The Part itself is counted] in a diurnal nativity from Mercury to Mars, and, in a nocturnal one, conversely, and is to be counted from the Ascendant. Therefore, by their movement, both of them point to sense, ability of discern, eloquence and wisdom if either the Part itself or its ruler resides together with the lord of Ascendant, and in the same time, there is another testimony from [their] place. If Mercury is strong, it gives way to expectation for copious reasoning and prodigious talent, and Mars [being strong], for a sharp and perspicacious mind.

Osthanes,

Great! Many thanks.

Okay, now let me give other translations from Bonatti for comparison. Then I will have a couple of questions.

1) Source: Translated by Robert Zoller, "On the Arabic Parts", 3rd electronic edition, 2004, New Library Ltd, p.19 [This has been taken from Guido Bonatti's famous Liber Astronomie]

The first and the second parts of the ascendant having been discussed, now we ought to discourse on the third part, which is the part of reason and sense or pars rationis et sensus. And since man is not able to be truly without reason and sense, the wise considered whence they were able to extract the pars rationis et sensus. And since they saw that Mercury was naturally the significator of both and also of imagination {cogitationes which may also be translated as ?thought?} and speech and understanding, and that Mars was significator of heat and motion, they extracted the the part from these two and called it the pars rationis et sensus.

In fact, this part could also be called the part of imagination and speech. It is taken by day from Mercury to Mars and by night in the opposite direction, and it is projected from the ascendant. And they said that this part signifies sense and reason and science and imagination and understanding and speech.

But if this part is well disposed in any one?s nativity and it is with the lord of the ascendant or with the lord of the house in which it is posited, or if the lord of the ascendant {being} in his own dignity aspects the lord of the house and at the same time Mercury aspects both the part and the lord of the ascendant or the lord of the part, by trine or sextile aspect or even a square with reception, and if Mercury is fortunate and strong and not impeded, then the native will be rational, knowing, speaking, thinking and understanding; and if at the same time Mars should aspect the ascendant or its lord or the lord of the part, the native will be wise, as I said, and he will be of sharp mind, learning easily and retaining well and not forgetting those things which he has learned

2) Source: Translated by Ben Dykes, "The Book of Astronomy by Guido Bonatti", 2007, Cazimi Press, Vol.II, p.1054

Having spoken about the first and second Parts of the Ascendant, we must now speak about its third Part, which is called the Part of Reason and Sense.And since one can not truly be a human without reason and sense, the sages considered whence they could extract a Part of Reason and Sense. And since they saw that Mercury was naturally the significator of each (also of thoughts and speech and thinking), and Mars was the significator of heat and motion, they extracted from these two a Part which they called the Part of Reason and Sense (this can even be called the Part of Thought and Speech) - which is taken in the day from mercury to Mars, and in the night the reverse; and it is projected from the Ascendant.

And they said that this Part signifies sense and reason; and it even signifies knowledge and thought and thinking and speaking.

Which if this Part were well disposed in someone's nativity, and it or the Lord of the domicile in which it is, were with the Lord of the Ascendant, or the Lord of the Ascendant were to aspect [the Lord of the Part] in his own dignity, and Mercury were then to aspect the Part and the Lord of the Ascendant or the Lord of the Part by a trine or sextile aspect (or at least from a square with reception), and Mercury were made fortunate and strong, nor impeded, the native will be rational, knowledgeable, speaking, thinking and perceptive.

And if mars were then to aspect the Ascendant, or its Lord, or the Lord of the Part, the native will be wise, as I said, and he will have an acute mind, easily learning; and those things which he learned, he will retain well, nor will he be forgetful...

Dykes further provides the following in the footnote to explain "...were to aspect [the Lord of the Part] in his own dignity":

Abu Mashar (Great Introduction VIII.4.599) says: "And if this Part or its Lord were with the Lord of the Ascendant or in the sign in which the Lord of the Ascendant had testimony, and Mercury were to aspect them by a strong aspect..."

Bonatti's statement suggests the Lord of the Part ought to be in the domicile of the Lord of the Ascendant's dignity. But Abu Ma'shar's statement suggests the Lord of the Part should be in a sign aspected by the Lord of the Ascendant.

3) Source: Yours as "the excerpt about the Part of Reasoning in an edition (Augustae Vindelicorum, 1489) of a Latin translation made by Hermann of Carinthia runs as follows (Liber VIII, Cap. IV de partibus signorum):

The third Part is of sense and reasoning, as Mercury is talent, memory, ability of discern, eloquence and wisdom, Mars is, however, sharpness of mind, rapt and quickness in thinking. [The Part itself is counted] in a diurnal nativity from Mercury to Mars, and, in a nocturnal one, conversely, and is to be counted from the Ascendant. Therefore, by their movement, both of them point to sense, ability of discern, eloquence and wisdom if either the Part itself or its ruler resides together with the lord of Ascendant, and in the same time, there is another testimony from [their] place. If Mercury is strong, it gives way to expectation for copious reasoning and prodigious talent, and Mars [being strong], for a sharp and perspicacious mind.

I will come back to touch upon some important differences between the texts above.

Sigma

Hello Sigma and Ostanes,

I saw too your post about the part of reasoning, and I made some research in Albumashar?s Great introduction in astrology.
I see that Osthanes made a translation. Please don?t feel offended but I saw it different. (it seems that you omitted some elements)
I found in book 8 chapter 4: about the parts of the 12 houses, reference about the part of reasoning and sense (?sensus et rationis). he explain the reason for this part : because Mercury by his essence is linked with critical thinking, eloquence, and Mars because it can easily conferee sharpen vigilance (acumen vigilantia levitas).
Regarding the interpretation he advises us to analyze if the part or its lord is connected with the lord of Asc being of equal degrees with testimonies from other places. Also he tells that is a good sign if Mercury or Mars (or both) being powerful observes part of reasoning. (I assume from his reference in other situations that he is refering to good aspects).

Sasha_i,

I will be really really grateful if you could give the full text by him.

Thanks

the text is exactly the one offered by Osthanes. I made a different interpretation of that fragment

To bee more explicit, I made a different translation of the fragment cited by Osthanes.

Hello Sigma and Sasha,

that is a question of interpretation, indeed. Maybe, we would understand these words better if one could compare this translation with that of John of Seville which is told to have better quality.
I can accept Sasha's suggestion for the interpretation of respecta as "being in aspect". But grammatically I cannot see possibility for an interpretation as "other place", because aliquo is linked to testimonio, not to loci. Now I suspect it is the very degree of the Part or its ruler where the lord of Ascendant should have any of dignities. This is mentioned by Dykes.

This way, I must alter my translation to another rough one :

Therefore, by their movement, both of them point to sense, ability of discern, eloquence and wisdom if either the Part itself or its ruler resides together with the Lord of Ascendant, and in the same time, it [sc. the lord of the Ascendant] has somewhat dignity in their place. [Moreover], if it [sc. the Part] is aspected by a strong Mercury, it promises copious reasoning and prodigious talent, and [if by a strong] Mars, for a sharp and perspicacious mind.

sigma4 wrote:Bonatti's statement suggests the Lord of the Part ought to be in the domicile of the Lord of the Ascendant's dignity. But Abu Ma'shar's statement suggests the Lord of the Part should be in a sign aspected by the Lord of the Ascendant.

I see no contradiction. Bonatti is more explicit but both say it is good if there is an aspect between the Lord of Ascendant and the Part itself or its ruler, and the Lord of Ascendant has dignity in that place (ie. in the degree of the Part or of its ruler). Actually, this is a quite common delineation of a Part where we investigate both the aspects and the rulerships.