Skyscript Astrology Forum

'Let the Sun rule by day and the Moon by night'

It appears to me the practice of many fine modern astrologers does not fully appreciate the distinguishment between diurnal and nocturnal charts. Our tables of essential dignities are drastically changed as day moves to night as the rulership of the triplicities are alternated. In example, we allow Saturn 3 essential dignities in Gemini by day. By night he is peregrine, less in his own terms. The Sun likewise in Sagittarius by day where he has his triplicity, this does not save him from being robbed of all dignity as soon as he has set in the East. The Moon collects 3 dignities in Virgo by night, but by day she is deprived of virtue, peregrine and may be the signifer of a thief. How can we allow this happen? How can we let our conception of a chart fluctate to such extremes if we do not fully grasp the radical difference between diurnal and nocturnal charts?

Do we succeed in offering priority to the Sun in a diurnal and the Moon in a nocturnal chart?

This question rises again when we come to the question of the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit. These two lots are for obvious reasons given the first position among the arabian parts, who practiced their astrology according to the calculation of a wide number of different parts. Many of these calculations were reversed or changed according to whether the chart was diurnal or nocturnal.

Al-Birumi seems to stay loyal to the traditional calculation of the lots, although he notes that Ptolemy did apply only method for the calculation of the Part of Fortune and did not reverse the order of the Sun and Moon for a nocturnal chart. Lilly appears to have followed Ptolemy - although I have not gone through all the charts for double-checking.

My reasoning tells me to follow Al-Biruni and the arabic tradition regarding reckoning the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit, but this need not disrupt the comprehension of many. The reason being that the Moon is more powerful than the Sun in a nocturnal chart, and therefore the Part of Spirit shall equally be considered more powerful than the Part of Fortune. For this reason the Part of Spirit may show preference or 'the winner' in a nocturnal chart - but if you think about it... if you have not changed your calculation in appreciation of the nocturnal chart, then the point you are passing judgement from is the Part of Fortune according to Ptolemy.

Little is written about the Part of Spirit in modern litterature but I have made some observations on the traditional doctrine: "The Spirit hovers across the waters."

The Part of Spirit may indicate values of a religious, holy or non-material kind. It indicates things that are either of an affectional value or a matter of honour. I found it to represent a church or a holy place (one client with the Part of Spirit on the 4th actually lived next to a church), or something that would be termed either a magnet or tourist attraction. In my notes I also find 'hospital' and 'swimming baths'. Sometimes the Part of Spirit showed the person travelling abroad and soaring across the waters, as it were.

In a nocturnal chart the Part of Spirit simply replaces the Part of Fortune from the unchanged chart. I think that the Part of Spirit takes precedence in the nocturnal chart and we should grab the opportunity to let us tell us something more about the chart in question.

I'm sorry Andrew probably I'm being dumb but I'm rather confused.
What makes the Part of Spirit in the nocturnal chart (AC+Moon-Sun) more Moon oriented in the nocturnal chart? The formula is the same as the diurnal Fortuna(AC+Moon-Sun). I'd understand it if you are saying that the day formula should be reversed for the nocturnal chart, which happens to work very well in my natal chart.

No problem, Gem. I am willing to go as many rounds as it takes. At any rate we are talking about a fine-tuned detail of interpretation. If people turn round at the end of the day and say "Ah, I still do not get the point - then it yet was an attempt to try and clairify the details.

1) The main thesis is that diurnal and nocturnal charts differ from one another. Diurnal charts are governed by the Sun; Nocturnal charts by the Moon.

2) The next is that different qualities/values are given preference during night, than during the day I.e. the hours of the day are warm and dry (Sun), while the hours of the night are cool and moist (Moon). This difference must be quite distint - or else a planet that governs a triplicity by day would not be peregrine by night, and vice versa.

We would assume the that cool, moist and receptive qualities of the night gives rize to different evaluations than the warm, dry and more manifest qualities of the day. The qualities of the night are more adapted sleep, rest, dreams and matters of the inner life or Spirit (or reflections of the soul, religion, etc)

3) Matters of the inner life are more apt during night. This gives the Part of Spirit a competive edge on the Part of Fortune in nocturnal charts. As soon as the Sun sets, you turn on the night.

The mathematical basis of the Parts (i.e. of Fortune and Spirit) are lunar-based and mainly derived as a result of the Moon's phases and motion round the Earth. The calculation of the Part of Fortune and Part of Spirit is composed of the same mathematical components and portions, but the calculation alternates according to day or night.

What I am trying to say is that the Part of Fortune is 'Solar' and the Part of Spirit is either 'Lunar' or the nocturnal expression of the Part of Fortune. For this simple reason the calculation of the Part of Fortune should be, in my opinion, changed by night - as the night gives emphasis and focus on different values. The 'winning point', i.e. Fortuna by day, or Spirit by night, is the same point of the ecliptic - but the quality and description of the winning arguements may be of a different order.

Please try me again if I am not getting to the point

Hi Andrew,

I've understood that it's the other way out - Part of Fortuna is the Lunar part, dealing with mundane/physical aspects, and Part of Spirit is the Solar part, dealing with consciousness and the soul. Rob Hand discusses this extensively in his article about matter and form

The Ancients said that The Part of Fortune was lunar in nature and The Part of Spirit was solar in nature, but they said something vastly more useful. Their descriptions stated in modern terms indicate that the Part of Fortune has to do with things that were unconscious, unintentional, instinctual, emotional and physical. These are all words for characteristics of material causes in living things. Whereas, the Part of Spirit was intentional, conscious, planned, ordered etc. It is the opposite. The implications of the ancient doctrines on the Part of Spirit and the Part of Fortune are that the Part of Fortune is a point of material cause in the chart and the Part of Spirit is a point having to do with manifest soul or consciousness, a formal cause.

http://www.robhand.com/Matter&FormArticle.htm

Hi Papretis!

Exactly!! I have not read it anywhere off Hand
but that is precisely what I am getting at!

I would have expected that the ancients got it right, but the translation went wrong somewhere along the line.
It's been known to happen.

Thanks!

I'd been wondering about this too, and have seen several references to the fact that the Part of Fortune was called the Part of the Moon and the Part of Spirit, the Part of the Sun. If you consider that the Moon joys in the 3rd house and the Sun in the 9th, this would correspond to what Fortuna and Spirit represent. The Moon is more to do with everyday, mundane matters, whereas the Sun is more to do with "soul-searching" etc.

The Sun is the Spirit and the Moon is the Soul.
But now we are getting close!

The Sun is the Spirit and the Moon is the Soul.

My reaction #1: Too simple. But it does make life simpler.

My reaction #2: Then we have to be careful about grabbing on to the Sun and the Part of Spirit in diurnal charts as one group, and the Moon and the part of Fortune in nocturnal charts as another group. That puts people into two very suspect categories. We are all soul and spirit. But it does make life simpler.

Got both parts in my chart...

I'm not suggesting that anyone lacks in either soul or spirit. But some people go for money, while others collect on honour and virtue - was that what you meant?

Andrew

Please try me again if I am not getting to the point

I'm not disputing the concept of differentiating diurnal and nocturnal charts. I seem to be the only one not understanding your arguments so I'll try again.
I thought you were arguing for reversing the day formula for the nocturnal chart at first but if you're arguing for using the Part of Spirit in the nocturnal chart, then the formula isn't reversed. Am I missing something here? The day formula of fortuna is AC + Moon - Sun. Are you saying that it should be AC+Sun-Moon?

Tom says:
The formula is based on the phase of the Moon, i.e. the geometric relationship between the Sun and Moon. That relationship doesn't change after sunset, so why change the formula?

Because the Sun comes first during day and the Moon comes first during night. The arbians must have had a reason for this division - or were they simply at err and trying to make things difficult. The chance is there is still LOTS to rediscover. While there is no doubt about Ptolemy's contribution to astrology, Al H. Morrison was one that used to call him a copy-cat lobbyist.

The point of Winning seems to be the same either by Day or Night, whether propperly called the Part of Fortune or Part of Spirit It would be great to get up some charts now demonstrating the Part of Spirit. Does anyone else use it?

Last addition:
Gem - I reverse the formula for a nocturnal chart - but would then judge the winner of a competition from the Part of Spirit instead of the Part of Fortune. Part of Fortune goes ahead by Day, the Part of Fortune by Night.