Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi all,
having begun to informally study Vedic astrology recently, I'm finding much of merit and interest in this ancient system. My main study aid is James T. Braha's book, "Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Asrologer", which I highly recommend for the beginner. It is very easy to follow.
As most of us know, Vedic astrology follows a set of interpretive rules that differ sometimes significantly from the western tradition. One such is the role played by the Moon's Nodes, both of which are considered malefic in the vedic system.
Rahu (the Dragon's Head) represents insatiable worldly desire. Ketu, the Dragon's Tail, on the other hand, is known as "moksha karaka", or 'indicator of enlightenment' and brings qualities of ascetism and non-attachment, which benefit those who are seeking a more spiritual path. Needless to say, the influence of Ketu doesn't fare well for worldly success.

Braha asserts that the most detrimental effects of the nodes occurs when either one is closely conjunct another planet, and he states that a planet conjunct Ketu "..seems to be dissolved or swallowed up into an abyss or kind of black hole. Then.....that planet behaves in a weird, compulsive, and unconscious or uncontrollable way." (AHA..MWA p34)
I can see that influence clearly in the chart of Adolph Hitler, who has the conjunction in the 3rd house in Sagittarius, where Ketu is said to be in fall. The Moon here is waning and rules the 10th of career.
What I find interesting is that I also have the waxing Moon closely conjunct Ketu in the 9th house in Gemini (vedic). Here Ketu is said to be exalted, so I'm confused somewhat as to how it can "dissolve or swallow up" my Moon, causing my emotions to behave in a "weird and compulsive" way. I also have the Moon ruling the 10th house of career.

Is there anyone with experience of working with the Vedic system who can throw more light on the role of Ketu in this respect? I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

Cheers,
Pete

Pete wrote:I can see that influence clearly in the chart of Adolph Hitler, who has the conjunction in the 3rd house in Sagittarius, where Ketu is said to be in fall. The Moon here is waning and rules the 10th of career.
What I find interesting is that I also have the waxing Moon closely conjunct Ketu in the 9th house in Gemini (vedic). Here Ketu is said to be exalted, so I'm confused somewhat as to how it can "dissolve or swallow up" my Moon, causing my emotions to behave in a "weird and compulsive" way. I also have the Moon ruling the 10th house of career.

Hi Pete,

as far as I know it's the other way out, Ketu (the South Node, Dragon's Tail) is exalted in Sagittarius and Rahu (the North Node, Dragon's Head) is exalted in Gemini, just like in Western traditional astrology. If Braha writes it another way out, it's his own opinion, not supported by tradition. Another popular opinion is that Rahu is exalted in Taurus and Ketu is exalted in Scorpio, but I?m personally convinced that the first option with Sagittarius and Gemini is right.

The reason is that most of the Western people doing Indian sidereal astrology have started with modern tropical Western astrology, and they simply adopt the tropical (modern) sign interpretations straight onto the sidereal zodiac, which view contains the implication that the tropicalists are simply wrong in their interpretations. But that?s not a good option, IMO, because the modern tropical view on the signs is largely based on real life observations (that?s why it works so well).

Let?s take tropical Capricorn for example: it?s connected with ambition, perseverance and material success connected with self-discipline and certain asceticism. Tropical Capricorn is for the most part covered with sidereal Sagittarius, and those same traits that apply to tropical Capricorn, go for the sidereal Sagittarius ? it couldn?t be otherwise, because then the other of the two systems would be utterly wrong, it?s the usually same people who have preponderance in both tropical Capricorn and sidereal Sagittarius, and those people don?t change along the zodiac.

How can sidereal Sagittarius be ambitious, materially successful, self-disciplined and ascetic then? Ambitiousness comes from fieriness, material success comes from Jupiter, but where come self-discipline and asceticism? They come from Ketu, the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius. I studied once people with Ketu right on their Ascendant and it gave graphical results: Ketu is quite accurately described in Indian texts: extreme, sometimes an ascetic (but sometimes an extreme hedonist) a bit weird, sometimes compulsive, going against the grain? Simone Weil (3rd February 1909 at 5.00 AM Paris, France) is a great example about a Ketu person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Weil . Another is Virginia Woolf. Then we have these 60?s rock stars, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin? and interesting point is that Ketu is classically associated with ragged clothes, and Uranus transited sidereal Sagittarius, when the grunge boom was at its height in the early 90?s.

So sidereal Sagittarius is a very contradictory sign, because it?s ruled by both Jupiter and Ketu, which are contradictory planets. Indians say that Rahu is like Saturn and Ketu is like Mars ? I don?t know where this comes, but it seems that the classical Western view is more workable and accurate here: Rahu is like Jupiter and Ketu is like Saturn.

But what about Rahu and Gemini then? Rahu is of course the opposite of Ketu: where Ketu is a loner, Rahu is a social and sympathetic planet, where Ketu is ?different?, Rahu wants to play with the rules of this world (that's probably why cosmobiologists associate Rahu/North Node with groups). Sidereal Gemini is for the most part covered with tropical Cancer: it?s a sympathetic, social, often quite a sensitive sign. As an Air sign it wants to be near other people, and because it?s ruled by Mercury, it?s changeable and curious, interested in communication and gathering information. The exaltation ruler Rahu gives Gemini a certain worldly, sensual, pleasant, in some cases a bit wily and manipulative feeling.

Hitler?s chart is an interesting example about Ketu and Sagittarius. On the other part of this site are chapters from Wilhem?s Wulff?s book Zodiac and Swastika, and in the second chapter http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff2.html Wulff gives Hitler a birth time that differs a bit from the usual 18.30 time. This 18.02.27 time is discussed elsewhere on this forum, and what?s especially interesting with it is that the earlier time changes Hitler?s sidereal Ascendant from Libra to Virgo. Using whole sign houses all planets change places, and the Moon/Jupiter/Ketu conjunction moves to the 4th house of mother.

How very descriptive it would be about Hitler?s relationship with his mother! He had an exceptionally close and loving relationship with her (Jupiter in its own sign conjoining the Moon), but he lost her early (Ketu, the planet of loss, joining the configuration). This may have affected later Hitler?s fiery war-mongering, who knows? The configuration is located in the 20th Lunar mansion, Purva Ashada, ?the Invincible? (13.20-26.40 sidereal Sagittarius), and people who have this mansion emphasized in their charts often believe that they can conquer anything. Undoubtedly that applied to Hitler to his own ultimate loss.

But how about your chart? Of course you cannot apply the cookbook interpretations right on. The Moon gives its results mainly in its Vimsottari or other planetary periods, and the Moon as the 10th house ruler has at least as much significance as the Moon as the significator of emotions (or mind).

This configuration might mean that your career is connected with religion, philosophy or something like that, because the 10th ruler is in the 9th house; and the career may have some mystical, ?occult? or otherwise unusual overtones (Ketu conjoining the 10th ruler). Ketu conjoining the Moon might make your mind unusually open to finer vibrations, it may make you a bit psychic, and it may add a bit unstableness there.

But Ketu is in its fall in Gemini, so it?s a bit weak, it?s not operating in full force or in its most typical manner. Ketu?s natural traits are not esteemed where it is (compare this with Hitler, who was a vegetarian and possibly celibate with his exalted Ketu). So it seems that dignities on the sidereal zodiac indicate mostly strength, and that strength can work for better or worse. With Hitler it worked for worse. For you a weak Ketu might also be a blessing. At least you?re not becoming a Hitler, sympathetic and social Gemini prevents you from that!

Hey Papretis,
Great! , you have done a really a remarkable study in "Jyotish" !

I ,really feel ,sincere admiration & respect for you.

Have you been to India ?

If ever you want to visit (again? ) , i shall certainly assist you in going to VaraNasi ( Benaras) or Hardwar ...the centre for studies of Ancients Scriptsrts/Tradional Astrology there...feel free to come as my Guest , you are most welcome! It shall be collective pleasure & honour , for this land , if you shall set your feet here!

However , as Great & highly valuable this Vedic astrology may be in that era...its general , popular practioners , atleast here in India ,have simply failed to do Justice with this Monumental science...see Assassination of Great Mahatma Gandhi, Indira Gandhi , Rajeev Gandhi , they failed to predict here...Even in last General Election in India...Astrologers of India,were unaminously predicting return of Power to Mr AB Vajpayee , the then PM , but reversed happened...gnerally speaking , this is high time Vedic Astrology has to come up & keep pace with the time....present intrepretations are so fatalistic...invariably always & so -off the mark!

Really , they should sit -up & do something about it!

Hello ,Pete...you can experiment with your clients charts also..if all your traditonal planets (excepting outer ones)fall between Ketu & Rahu...whether ,atleast one major aspect in life shall be denied..like birth of a son! or relatively low returns from job/occupation ,despite exceptional inputs etc.

Here , same theme is termed past- life curse of a Snake (Rahu) , and as ketu , due to its always retograde motion , starts conjuncting each planet in turn, problem usually ( i dont know how) occur correspondingly in natives life!

You can study & tell us also!
By the way , i have modified version of this aspect..many on eves of crucial decisions, many a black snakes come bitingly alive in my derams!

hope to hear more on this Rahu/Ketu!
( May i requset you, just keep academic interest only!)

Regards!

Arihant

Hi Pete,

Hi Papretis

as far as I know it's the other way out, Ketu (the South Node, Dragon's Tail) is exalted in Sagittarius and Rahu (the North Node, Dragon's Head) is exalted in Gemini, just like in Western traditional astrology. If Braha writes it another way out, it's his own opinion, not supported by tradition. Another popular opinion is that Rahu is exalted in Taurus and Ketu is exalted in Scorpio, but I?m personally convinced that the first option with Sagittarius and Gemini is right.

Do you have a source for the assertion that Ketu is exalted in Sagittarius? I ask because Braha states on page 35: "there is no agreement by the Hindu sages about their beneficial or detrimental sign placements. The only certainty is that the nodes are both exalted in either of Mercury's signs, Gemini and Virgo. This is logical because Rahu and Ketu, which are devoid of any mental qualities, must benefit by the intelligence and stimulation of the Mercury energy."

Note that Braha calls this a "certainty", which sounds like he is quoting tradition but he fails to elaborate on which traditional source he is drawing from.

How can sidereal Sagittarius be ambitious, materially successful, self-disciplined and ascetic then? Ambitiousness comes from fieriness, material success comes from Jupiter, but where come self-discipline and asceticism? They come from Ketu, the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius. I studied once people with Ketu right on their Ascendant and it gave graphical results: Ketu is quite accurately described in Indian texts: extreme, sometimes an ascetic (but sometimes an extreme hedonist) a bit weird, sometimes compulsive, going against the grain? Simone Weil (3rd February 1909 at 5.00 AM Paris, France) is a great example about a Ketu person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Weil . Another is Virginia Woolf. Then we have these 60?s rock stars, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin?

Yes I can see clearly the compulsiveness, non-attachment and ascetic qualities inherent in both Weil and Woolf. And the extreme, compulsive behaviour of Joplin is described well also, especially since Ketu is aspected by Mars in her chart!

So sidereal Sagittarius is a very contradictory sign, because it?s ruled by both Jupiter and Ketu, which are contradictory planets. Indians say that Rahu is like Saturn and Ketu is like Mars ? I don?t know where this comes, but it seems that the classical Western view is more workable and accurate here: Rahu is like Jupiter and Ketu is like Saturn.

I tend to agree with the latter view also. Jupiter can certainly be worldly and insatiable while Saturn does promote ascetism.

Hitler?s chart is an interesting example about Ketu and Sagittarius. On the other part of this site are chapters from Wilhem?s Wulff?s book Zodiac and Swastika, and in the second chapter http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff2.html Wulff gives Hitler a birth time that differs a bit from the usual 18.30 time. This 18.02.27 time is discussed elsewhere on this forum, and what?s especially interesting with it is that the earlier time changes Hitler?s sidereal Ascendant from Libra to Virgo. Using whole sign houses all planets change places, and the Moon/Jupiter/Ketu conjunction moves to the 4th house of mother.

I must admit this is the first time that I've seen this time postulated for Hitler's birth. Most authorities give 18.30 LMT. Lois Rodden uses this time and quotes Claudia von Schierstedt, who "confirmed the data to LMR, from research of archives. Austria at that time did not have the time of birth on the certificate but Heinz Noesselt, a co-worker at "Zenit," asked at the rectory, as the church did keep a notice of the birth and christening, and published the information in Zenit 11/1933, p. 431. "Hitler was born 20 April 1889 6? in the evening, at Salzburger Vorstadt 219, Branau."
The 6.02 time is interesting though, as it places the Aries stellium in the 8th house, where Mercury (10th lord) and Venus (9th lord) are afflicted by both the powerful Sun (12th lord), Mars (8th lord), and also Saturn (5th lord). The afflictions to Venus (9th lord) would explain Hitler's amoral nature and the powerful 8th would describe his fascination with the darker side of the occult and his obsession with the so called "Spear of Destiny".
No doubt this birthtime for Hitler would benefit from further study and when I have the time I'll look further into it.

But how about your chart? Of course you cannot apply the cookbook interpretations right on. The Moon gives its results mainly in its Vimsottari or other planetary periods, and the Moon as the 10th house ruler has at least as much significance as the Moon as the significator of emotions (or mind).
This configuration might mean that your career is connected with religion, philosophy or something like that, because the 10th ruler is in the 9th house; and the career may have some mystical, ?occult? or otherwise unusual overtones (Ketu conjoining the 10th ruler). Ketu conjoining the Moon might make your mind unusually open to finer vibrations, it may make you a bit psychic, and it may add a bit unstableness there.

Ok, here's a very short bio. I'm almost 54 yrs old and I've been studying astrology since I was 13. If you were to ask anyone what they knew about me the first thing they would tell you is that I'm an astrologer, although I have never earned my living at it, much to my chagrin. In fact the question of my calling in life has always been a real puzzle for me, as I've never had what you might call a 'settled' career. As for the psychic description, I've been psychic for as long as I can remember, but not in any 'controlled' way. It comes when it comes and I can't call on it. Yes, I suppose my emotions can be described as a bit compulsive and extreme at times and I certainly go against the grain when it comes to my beliefs!

But Ketu is in its fall in Gemini, so it?s a bit weak. ...For you a weak Ketu might also be a blessing. At least you?re not becoming a Hitler, sympathetic and social Gemini prevents you from that!

Ha! Well I have been called a few things in my time but not a Hitler, thankfully!
Thanks Papretis, for your insight..

cheers,
Pete

Arihant,
I'll keep an eye open for more charts with Ketu conjunctions and I'll post whatever I find here. Thanks.

Pete

Hi Arihant and Pete, and thank you both for your comments.

Arihant, no, I haven't been in India but maybe I'll come there some say for a visit.

Pete wrote:Do you have a source for the assertion that Ketu is exalted in Sagittarius? I ask because Braha states on page 35: "there is no agreement by the Hindu sages about their beneficial or detrimental sign placements. The only certainty is that the nodes are both exalted in either of Mercury's signs, Gemini and Virgo. This is logical because Rahu and Ketu, which are devoid of any mental qualities, must benefit by the intelligence and stimulation of the Mercury energy."

I took a fast look through my books, but I didn't find much. The few classics I have about Indian astrology don't say anything about Rahu's and Ketu's exaltation. Bonatti says:

The Head of the Dragon is exalted in Gemini, namely in its third degree. Its Tail is exalted in Sagittarius, namely in its third degree.

(Treatise 2 - Signs and Houses, Dykes' translation)

This is also the default setting in Solar Fire.

Hart DeFouw and Robert Svoboda write in Light on Life:

Rahu and Ketu have no established constellations of exaltation and debilitation. The majority of jyotishis agree that Rahu is exalted in Taurus and debilitated on Scorpio, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio and debilitated in Taurus. However, a small but significant group of jyotishis take Gemini and Sagittarius to be the exaltation and debilitation constellations of Rahu, and Sagittarius and Gemini to be the exaltation and debilitation constellations respectively of Ketu.

Pete wrote:Jupiter can certainly be worldly and insatiable while Saturn does promote ascetism.

Exactly.

Pete wrote:The 6.02 time is interesting though, as it places the Aries stellium in the 8th house, where Mercury (10th lord) and Venus (9th lord) are afflicted by both the powerful Sun (12th lord), Mars (8th lord), and also Saturn (5th lord). The afflictions to Venus (9th lord) would explain Hitler's amoral nature and the powerful 8th would describe his fascination with the darker side of the occult and his obsession with the so called "Spear of Destiny".

Yes, those are the reasons why this birth time intrigues me too. Hitler?s father was a horrendous, violent despot, and if we take the Sun as the universal significator of the father, it would be illustrative to have the Ascendant ruler Mercury combusted by the exalted Sun in the 8th house (house of fear). And if we add a bit medieval Western astrology into the soup, the Sun is receiving Mercury into its exaltation, it ?commits and gives its own disposition and nature and virtue to it.? (Bonatti, Treatise 3 ? Planets). Mercury is "sucked empty" by the powerful, almighty Sun, but then its filled again with a different, Solar energy. Hitler was beaten as a child, terrorized by his father, but later he became an almighty dictator himself. A psychological interpretation, Alice Miller would love this.

Thank you for your short biography, most appreciated. I?ve started to think that maybe the concept of cardinal ? succedent ? cadent houses might work best with the whole sign houses after all, like ancient Greeks did it. And *if* they were actually using a sidereal zodiac (we cannot know for sure, because the zodiacs were so close at that time), it would be sidereal whole sign houses. By that way your 10th house ruler would be cadent, being in the 9th house, and that might explain what you wrote about your career:

In fact the question of my calling in life has always been a real puzzle for me, as I've never had what you might call a 'settled' career.

I have my 10th house ruler in the 3rd house (also cadent), and I?m a long-time low-paid communication worker, but that?s definitely not my real calling, it?s only something I get bread and butter from.

I took a fast look through my books, but I didn't find much. The few classics I have about Indian astrology don't say anything about Rahu's and Ketu's exaltation. Bonatti says:

The Head of the Dragon is exalted in Gemini, namely in its third degree. Its Tail is exalted in Sagittarius, namely in its third degree.

(Treatise 2 - Signs and Houses, Dykes' translation)

Thanks Papretis. I've always respected Bonatti's work so even though he gives no source for his assertion I'll bow to his greater knowledge on this one.

Hart DeFouw and Robert Svoboda write in Light on Life:
Rahu and Ketu have no established constellations of exaltation and debilitation. The majority of jyotishis agree that Rahu is exalted in Taurus and debilitated on Scorpio, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio and debilitated in Taurus. However, a small but significant group of jyotishis take Gemini and Sagittarius to be the exaltation and debilitation constellations of Rahu, and Sagittarius and Gemini to be the exaltation and debilitation constellations respectively of Ketu.

Hmmm...it would appear that there is some doubt as to the nomination of Taurus and Scorpio. If a "significant group" of jyotishis favour Gemini and Sagittarius there must be a good reason for it. That inclines me to move closer to the latter.

Hitler?s father was a horrendous, violent despot, and if we take the Sun as the universal significator of the father, it would be illustrative to have the Ascendant ruler Mercury combusted by the exalted Sun in the 8th house (house of fear). And if we add a bit medieval Western astrology into the soup, the Sun is receiving Mercury into its exaltation, it ?commits and gives its own disposition and nature and virtue to it.? (Bonatti, Treatise 3 ? Planets). Mercury is "sucked empty" by the powerful, almighty Sun, but then its filled again with a different, Solar energy. Hitler was beaten as a child, terrorized by his father, but later he became an almighty dictator himself. A psychological interpretation, Alice Miller would love this.

I'm sure she would! It's interesting too, don't you think, that Mercury is only combust in the sidereal system? Using tropical, Mercury occupies Aries and the Sun is in Taurus. Therefore, no combustion.

I?ve started to think that maybe the concept of cardinal ? succedent ? cadent houses might work best with the whole sign houses after all, like ancient Greeks did it. And *if* they were actually using a sidereal zodiac (we cannot know for sure, because the zodiacs were so close at that time), it would be sidereal whole sign houses. By that way your 10th house ruler would be cadent, being in the 9th house, and that might explain what you wrote about your career

Yes absolutely.

I have my 10th house ruler in the 3rd house (also cadent), and I?m a long-time low-paid communication worker, but that?s definitely not my real calling, it?s only something I get bread and butter from.

This is an interesting area of study for sure. The cadent houses are traditionally the weakest so one would expect planets to have little power to act positively there, unless Mars and Saturn are in the 6th and 12th respectively, where they have their "joy" in the western system, and where they are "karaka" in the vedic.
My wife has the 10th lord, Mars, in the 12th in Gemini. One would expect her to have little or no success in her career from this placement, yet paradoxically she is a successful business analyst working in New York City. This *could* be explained by the fact that Mars is lord of the trikona 5th house as well as the 10th, and she has the Sun - lord of 2nd - exalted in the 10th house, where it is also karaka and receives 'dik bala'.
What do you think?

Pete

Pete wrote:It's interesting too, don't you think, that Mercury is only combust in the sidereal system? Using tropical, Mercury occupies Aries and the Sun is in Taurus. Therefore, no combustion.

Yes, it is interesting. I didn't remember that.

Pete wrote:My wife has the 10th lord, Mars, in the 12th in Gemini. One would expect her to have little or no success in her career from this placement, yet paradoxically she is a successful business analyst working in New York City. This *could* be explained by the fact that Mars is lord of the trikona 5th house as well as the 10th, and she has the Sun - lord of 2nd - exalted in the 10th house, where it is also karaka and receives 'dik bala'.
What do you think?

It's hard to say without seeing the whole chart (it might be hard anyway...). On the top of my head I would say that the raja yoga karaka status of Mars may influence the situation, but this exalted Sun the 2nd lord might be even more influental here. It looks really powerful. There?s a few influential fixed stars in Gemini: Polaris 4.43 Gemini (using Lahiri ayanamsa), Betelgeuze 4.54 Gemini, Sirius 20.14 Gemini, Castor and Pollux 26.23 and 29.22 Gemini respectively, is your wife?s Mars near any of these?

If Rob Hand?s notion about the ruler representing the soul of the house http://www.robhand.com/Matter&FormArticle.htm is true, your wife?s 10th house is really powerful per se, but there might be some problems with the ?soul? of the 10th house being in the 12th. Some of the meanings for the 12th house are expenses, immigration and self-undoing, being on a foreign stand.

I?ve seen charts of really successful people with cadent planets, but sometimes I get the feeling that cadency might indicate that the person in question may get a lot of success, but it?s not exactly the kind of success s/he would hope. There?s an element of frustration somewhere. Yoko Ono (18th February 1935, 20.30 Tokyo, Japan, rating A from memory) is an interesting example about cadent planets (by using sidereal whole signs): Rahu/Ketu axis, Mars, Jupiter, the Sun, the Moon and Mercury are all cadent. She has really got to fight for respect, though she?s also been undeniably successful, both artistically and financially.

These are quite preliminary thoughts, but I enjoy discussing the subject. Thanks for giving a chance to discuss things that I've been pondering just recently.

...I would say that the raja yoga karaka status of Mars may influence the situation, but this exalted Sun the 2nd lord might be even more influental here. It looks really powerful.

Yes, that was my feeling as well. The 2nd and 10th are both artha houses so it bodes well for financial security. Would you say that the rajayoga status of Mars in any way offsets any negative connotations from its placement in the 12th house?

There?s a few influential fixed stars in Gemini: Polaris 4.43 Gemini (using Lahiri ayanamsa), Betelgeuze 4.54 Gemini, Sirius 20.14 Gemini, Castor and Pollux 26.23 and 29.22 Gemini respectively, is your wife?s Mars near any of these?

Not really. Her Mars is at 16 Gemini so it's a bit wide for the conjunction with Sirius.

If Rob Hand?s notion about the ruler representing the soul of the house http://www.robhand.com/Matter&FormArticle.htm is true, your wife?s 10th house is really powerful per se, but there might be some problems with the ?soul? of the 10th house being in the 12th. Some of the meanings for the 12th house are expenses, immigration and self-undoing, being on a foreign stand.

I will definately read Hand's article over the weekend. Thanks! It's an interesting notion about the "soul" of a house, because I think I can say that my wife's soul is not really in her work. She is originally from Pakistan and came to the U.S. when she was 18, thirty years ago. This aligns well with the 10th lord being in the 12th wouldn't you say?

I?ve seen charts of really successful people with cadent planets, but sometimes I get the feeling that cadency might indicate that the person in question may get a lot of success, but it?s not exactly the kind of success s/he would hope....

Yes perhaps, but I think we need to be careful when assigning the western idea of cadency to the vedic system. For instance, the 9th house is considered cadent (and therefore weak) in the west but in the vedic system the 9th house is one of the trikonas and therefore pretty strong. The 3rd house also seems to be quite strong in jyotish, yet not so in the western tradition,

These are quite preliminary thoughts, but I enjoy discussing the subject. Thanks for giving a chance to discuss things that I've been pondering just recently.

I'm enjoying this too. I'll send you my wife's birthdata privately.
====
Pete

Pete wrote:The 2nd and 10th are both artha houses so it bodes well for financial security. Would you say that the rajayoga status of Mars in any way offsets any negative connotations from its placement in the 12th house?

Well, no, I wouldn't say that. The 12th house is the 12th house, no matter what. But what you told about your wife having moved from Pakistan to the US 30 years ago, fits perfectly with the 12th house symbolism. The 10th ruler in the 12th house - a career abroad, that's a classic interpretation!

Pete wrote:Yes perhaps, but I think we need to be careful when assigning the western idea of cadency to the vedic system. For instance, the 9th house is considered cadent (and therefore weak) in the west but in the vedic system the 9th house is one of the trikonas and therefore pretty strong. The 3rd house also seems to be quite strong in jyotish, yet not so in the western tradition,

These are critical questions, because *if* Greeks (and possibly also some of medieval Arabs ? at least the chart by Masha?allah in Rob Hand?s site http://www.robhand.com/recept.htm is clearly sidereal, I?ve showed it here http://www.bendykes.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=5 ) were really using a sidereal zodiac, then the gap between Indian and traditional Western astrology would be smaller than we think. Then there would be no reason for not applying Hellenistic, even medieval techniques sidereally. For what I?ve seen so far, they in fact seem to work quite well on the sidereal Lahiri zodiac. For example Egyptian bounds give very interesting results, but that should be discussed in a separate thread.

The 9th house is interesting, because on the other hand in represents spirituality and God, but on the other hand it falls away from the 10th house. In fact it?s perfectly logical: you turn away from the wordly success and ambitions (the 10th house), and start to apply a more reclusive and spiritual way of life. Even Jesus said that one cannot serve both Mammon and God. The 9th house is seen as very fortunate in the Vedic system, but is it strong as such? I don?t know. It?s probably strong in the spiritual sense, but not so strong in the worldly sense.

In cadent houses you?re always losing something, because cadent houses fall away from the cardinal houses. In the 12th house you lose yourself and your property, that?s why it?s the house of expenses and debt (when the 2nd house, moving towards the 1st, is the house of gains).
In the 9th you lose your worldly career and reputation for higher goals and God, the most extreme example of this is the Russian orthodox tradition of making deliberately a fool of yourself, being a ?fool for God?, so that people would despise you, and you could beat your pride that way. In fact I think there?s a similar tradition in Hinduism.
When the 7th house is the house of death in Indian and ancient Greek astrology, the 6th house is ?moving away from death?, the house of illness and, following this logic, also recovery. It's the house of servants, could that also mean nurses?
In the 3rd house you move away from home, it?s the house of transportation. In the modern world it could also be the house of media, where you lose your privacy!

Thanks for your and your wife?s data, I stored them.

steven wrote:Masha'allah's methods mixed quite freely several conceptions! He used Sassanian tables for the supeiors, ancient Babylonian tables of ascensions based on a fixed Aries point from nearly a 1000 years earlier! He used climes that were very different from the 'climes' used to fix these ascensional times! He used Ptolemy's tables for calculating tropical inferiors! These tables in themselves hold several calculational errors!

Hi Steven and thank you for your response,

you're right, that's really a mess. I believe that you and Rob Hand have studied this carefully ? I still don?t own On Reception (it?s actually only Book of Nativities that I have, but you?ve pointed out that it?s probably not written by Masha?allah); I must obtain it and look by myself.

But don?t you think that the planetary positions calculated with a modern program for the date 13th February 791 give surprisingly close matches compared with those Masha?allah gives? And the closest matches come from inferiors, especially the Sun, the Moon and Venus, which differ from 2? to 23? minutes from the given positions. Plus that - unlike in the charts speculated by D. Pingree in the commentary of Book of Nativities - the date actually matches with the time Masha?allah lived (??flourished between the years 762-815 C.E? ? Introduction to the Book of Nativities of Masha?allah by Robert Hand).

There?s probably other charts in On Reception, where it?s not that easy to find a date that would give satisfactory results, but at least for me, it?s hard to ignore how close the sidereal positions for that specific date come to those presented in the text.

I have Ketu right on the Ascendent. It is said to make life by and large disappointing, and I think there is a lot of truth to this where the horoscope is otherwise weak.

In the 12th century Phaladeepika, the author notes that Ketu on the Ascendent is a "teller of tales" - either a talented storyteller or a liar, or perhaps something of both.

I do not know why Ketu has the Mars association, but I bet there is some line of logic that I am simply unaware of. Rahu has the Saturn association for good reasons. Unless Rahu is powerful (and even if it is powerful), the 18 year Rahu dasa is said to bring many of the limitations and painful lessons of Saturn, particularly at the beginning and toward the end of each dasa (I know this is something that James Braha mentions).

A number of Western vedic astrologers are starting to argue convincingly that Rahu is exalted in Aquarius. Joni Patry mentioned it at the last ACVA conference I attended. Prash Trivedi mentions it also in his book, The Celestial Portals. To understand this line of thought, it is essential to understand the underlying nakshatras, and not just the Western sun signs. Aquarius is primarily make up of the ascetic Uttara Bhadrapada, and the darkly powerful, materialistic, demon-loving Purva Bhadrapada. Both of these nakshatras speak to a side of Rahu's essential nature - Rahu the witch is seen with PB, while Rahu the monk is seen with UB. I have Rahu in PB myself. For me it acts as a bright focal point in what is otherwise a very weak horoscope.

I will mention that no one seems to be arguing for Ketu's exalted strength in Leo. This is because the underlying nakshatras of Magha and Purva Phalguni do not share strong associations with Ketu, even though Ketu is associated with PP as a deity that governs the nakshatra. Uttara Phalguni is also associated with Leo, and there is a strong Mars association here - perhaps this is part of the missing link between Ketu and Mars, but I can only speculate.

Ketu may not give the same strong effect in a sign of exaltation or rulership that Rahu does. Its 7 year dasa is said to be difficult to characterize. This may also be why people have more difficulty teasing out rulerships for Ketu.