Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi Gang,

Here is an interesting chart of a woman who became famous despite a background that hardly was indicative of fame.

Female
Feb 22, 1942
11:15 AM BST - 1 hour
London, England

6 Gemini 42 rises

Can we determine for what she was famous? Older types, like me, will recall her as a household name. Younger folks probably have no idea who she is. The data isn't too hard to find, so no peeking.

Since we haven't done one in a while, for newcomers, we do not try to guess the name of the person. Save that. Just describe what you see. The answer comes when I feel like it - usually within a week or two of posting.

Enjoy,

Tom

As no one has started yet, let me give a shot

A very sanguine person, with a touch of water to give drama :-)
Jupiter gives an optimistic, expansive, "grandiouse" image. The lord of manners is probably venus, or else mercury.
Venus in aquarius conj mercury is feminine in a "hetaira" way, perhaps ? She is feminine and powerful, but in a way that most of men would "fear", too intelectual, individualistic, self-assured. In the 40?s it wouldn?t be seen as a "proper lady".

Curious mind, and a strong interest in accumulation of knoledge. Has a libertarian or humanistic view. With lord ASC in divisional 10th, she likes to put her word in the world, to exert power.

I don?t think there were a lot of women going to science in the 50-60?s, so she was probably in a career of a venus nature with a touch of mercury, in a human sign. Maybe journalism ? Mercury is also ruler of 5th, so it would fit.

Saturn is ruler of MC. She is famous for thing secretive, potencially violent, of a low nature, corrupted. So I though of an researcher. But of course, it can mean that she was known for doing this kind of things :-)

She does seen to have had problems with spirituality and religion. I can?t know if this is why she is famous, but can add an behaviour of self-destruction or eloquent heresy.

What is very striking in this chart is Venus on MC in strong mutual reception by rulership and triplicity with Saturn in an intercepted Taurus in the 12th. Another striking point is Saturn ruler of 10th of status, career and how the others see us is part of a stellium with detrimented Mars lord of 12th and Moon. Moon is exalted and right on Algol, this must mean something very, very bad! Jupiter lord of 7th and 8th is in the first and exactly trine Mercury lord of 1st and 2nd in 10th.
Trine of Mercury and Jupiter certainly shows her expansive and inventive mind, but Moon lord of 3rd of her thinking conjunct Algol adds a diabolical twist to her thoughts. I wonder if cool Venus in Aquarius served to bring out to public view this woman?s aggressive tendencies which were buried in the 12th house? Did she become famous by murdering somebody? After all her significator Mercury trines the lord of 8th house of death, and Sun lord of 4th of endings squares her Ascendent. Maybe she killed herself? Sun is conjunct the Fomalhaut, and this star is said to give immortal name, and to have a variable influence either very good or very bad depending on the overall structure. Since the Sun rules the 4th and 5th maybe she became famous for how she might have died, or famous just because of her creativity.
On the other hand, this Jupiter in detriment lord of 8th which is also other people's money, Mercury lord of 2nd and Venus dispositor of 3 secretive planets out in the open could have made her known as a thief. She could have been engaged in financial malversations, or maybe she robbed a bank in an extremely original way?

I'm going to do something a little different this time and make some comments along the way. What is interesting is that both Yuzuru and LeeLu have captured some of the essence of the native, but haven't exactly caught what she is known for. I'm not sure astrology can be all that precise especially when the astrologer has nothing to go on but the chart and gender of the native. The only other fact I gave is that the native's background or beginnings is not the kind where we woud look for fame. So I'll add some "hints," or indications where you might be on the right track. The fact that I do not mention something does not mean it's wrong. I'm just going to hit some more obvious points.

A very sanguine person, with a touch of water to give drama

Good observation. This is a good example of the broad brush information the temperament gives us.

She is feminine and powerful, but in a way that most of men would "fear", too intelectual, individualistic, self-assured. In the 40?s it wouldn?t be seen as a "proper lady"

There are some interesting psychological observations here that go beyond the scope of this exercise, particularly about what men in her life may or may not fear. We may wish to come back to that.

Remember, she was born in the 1940s, during WWII. Typically she would not be considered to be an adult for another 18 or so years.

but can add an behaviour of self-destruction or eloquent heresy.

Love that phrase "eloquent heresy. Remember it."


LeeLu writes:

What is very striking in this chart is Venus on MC in strong mutual reception by rulership and triplicity with Saturn in an intercepted Taurus in the 12th. Another striking point is Saturn ruler of 10th of status, career and how the others see us is part of a stellium with detrimented Mars lord of 12th and Moon. Moon is exalted and right on Algol, this must mean something very, very bad!

"Bad" is a judgmental word, but judgments aren't always wrong. And after all, what we are engaging in is "judicial astrology." There is also degree of "bad" and different kinds of "bad." Don't make too much of what I just wrote. Just keep it in mind, should you go back to the chart.

Planets in the 12th are said to have difficulty expressing themselves. In order to express themselves they need a way "out." The two best ways are mutual reception and being aspected by the dispositor. The aspect need only be by sign. So these planets "get out." However they are still 12th house planets.

but Moon lord of 3rd of her thinking conjunct Algol adds a diabolical twist to her thoughts.

This would become obivious years after the events that made her famous. It may well be that she was this way before, but it didn't show. I don't know and haven't found anything so far to confirm it. By the way, to the best of my knowledge she is still alive and presumably well.

Did she become famous by murdering somebody?

No. And given the above, she obviously did not kill herself or ever try that I know of. Nor did she murder anyone. Think metaphorically.

On the other hand, this Jupiter in detriment lord of 8th which is also other people's money, Mercury lord of 2nd and Venus dispositor of 3 secretive planets out in the open could have made her known as a thief.

Again to my knowledge she has never been a thief. You are on to something, though.

Good job guys.

Oh by the way. I discovered that she was probably not born in London, but nearby. I'm not going to post the location or change the chart because it only changes the angles by about 20 minutes of arc, and for our purposes, it won't change anything significant. If anyone wants to do some work with primary directions, where this little difference could throw off things, let me know on or off list and I'll give the data. However keep in mind this on the quarter hour time could be off a bit, too.

One more thought. Although I doubt we'll get to this before the name is revealed, I think this chart gives us a real opportunity to get into some pretty deep astrology. There are themes in the life that may and probably do show in the chart, that are not what we would normally look for. This is something skeptics can't get straight. "Something spectacular happened to so and so. Why didn't you predict it?

"Because I wasn'tlooking for it."

It is not reasonable for anyone to expect an astrologer to look at a chart and plot the precise details of a life, without error or without being led astry. There are only 12 houses and a few planets and signs and they all have lots of meanings. From here we go to the fate and free will thing, that I want to avoid. But it is possible as just two efforts have shown, to get some of the broad brush stuff right, even if the details are a bit off. THis is temstimony to the range of human experience.

So keep plugging and I invite others to join in as well.

Tom

Tom, thanks for the hints and comments.
Well, I thought about killing and aggression because of that Algol and two malefics around it plus the Moon. But, this heavy combination of earth with air probably gave her more pragmatic and calculated mind, and there?s this cool Venus to present it. Whatever propelled her into public view must have been elaborately constructed over time, in secrecy (this does not necessarily mean constructed by her, but maybe just by the accumulated circumstances, and she just knew how to put it to use). By solar arc directions in the year 1961 Saturn and Mars conjoin Jupiter, Venus squares the Moon, and Sun sextiles Saturn and Mars... Mercury and Jupiter changed signs. By secundary progressions Mars squares the Sun, Mercury squares Moon and Venus trines Jupiter. Could this have been the year of the things finally coming into the open?
What made her famous... I keep thinking about financial matters. This Jupiter -Mercury trine is so striking. Maybe her fame has more to do with the finances of her partner(s), or the inheritance?

Hello Tom and all,

Looking at the chart with respect to fame, the Sun, having analogy to fame, is in the 10th sign, so she is famous for her deeds. I'll try to get to that in a moment.

There is a square between the Sun and Jupiter, where Jupiter receives the Sun by sign rulership. The native has a contentious relationship with authority, though this is mitigated by reception, so I don't think she would get into too much trouble. The Sun is peregrine and is approaching conjunction of the Dragon's Tail, so a very afflicted Sun (I expect that the authority had a fall from grace). It is in the 10th sign from Jupiter, so the Sun is more dominant and pushes itself onto the native, so the native probably has fame thrust upon her. The Sun's rulership of the 3rd and exaltation of the 11th would also imply that she probably has news coverage and money (state monies?) given to her.

Using a trick from the Hellenistic period, we can take the minor years of the planets involved in an aspect, add them together, and look for some event in either that age of the native, or in a thirding of that age.

So, the minor years of the Sun are 19, those of Jupiter 12, so we can look at the native?s ages of 10, 20, and 31 and see if we can find this aspect manifesting events. The solar returns and profections would likely be the tools to use; at 20, the Ascendant is profected to Aquarius and the MC, so I think that is a very likely candidate.

I'd like to correct this. Its not the ages, but the years of life of the native, so we'd be looking at when the native turned 9, 19, and 30 years of age by our reckoning. For this specifically, we'd see the Ascendant profected to Capricorn, and then the solar return for her 19th birthday.

Venus, ruler of the 12th, is conjoined by sign with Mercury, ruler of the Asc, so maybe she was in danger of imprisonment. I don't have Janus or an ephemeris on me so I can't tell if the aspect ever perfects or not. Being retrograde, maybe she is held for a time and then released, or is threatened with jail but then the threat is withdrawn.

So what kind of deeds would she perform? Mercury conjoined Venus would point to deeds of beauty mixed with contention. They are trine Jupiter in the 1st sign, so this is leading to her body being used. Mercury and Venus are in the 9th sign, so there may be a religious or foreign connection, and their ruler Saturn is in the 12th sign, so this may lead to imprisonment or otherwise being subjected to her enemies, enslavement.

Actually, Mars, Saturn, and Moon conjoined like this may signify slavery or prostitution. There is a specific mention of this, I believe, in Maternus, but I don?t have it on me and so can't give a proper citation. It might have been specific to Aries. Having Venus in a Saturn sign, along with them both being afflicted by Mars, would also signify this, or at least what would be considered inappropriate sexual conduct. Having the ruler of the 7th in the 1st and aspecting the ASC lord would also be a indication of seeking sexual activity.

The Venus squares to Saturn and Mars are mitigated by reception by domicile, and Saturn receives Mars by term. The Moon receives them by exaltation. I would still expect this Mars to be relatively nasty, being the nocturnal malefic in a day chart and being in detriment. This would probably be indicative of some financial difficulties that the native endures.

Sorry for the rambling presentation; I am at work. So Tom, is the native known for some contentious sexual activity, involving perhaps foreign persons or figures of authority?

Some seriously good stuff here and too much to comment on, but I'll hit some highlights this time from Steven and Gabe and I'll give out some information that I hope isn't too helpful.

Steven writes:

2nd third of life is when she gains her notoriety and since Mercury is angular, joined to Jupiter, then I?d say she didn?t suffer physically in this period but probably had a life of some consistence and luxury because of what she does. Jupiter is the last triplicity ruler and Jupiter is always Jupiter and has a testimony in the sign of the ascendant, though the last third of her life may be somewhat full of regrets and loneliness (Jupiter is also in its detriment).

I'm not sure how to divide the life into thirds when the native is still alive. If she lives to ninety the first third is up to age 30. The second 30 - 60 and the last 60 - 90. As I've stated she is still alive as far as I know and therefore 66 years old. However, if we divide the life into childhood, adulthood, and old age then her notoriety would be in the 2nd third.

The most recent interview I found was done in several years ago. I'm going to withhold the date, but I'm not sure it would give much away. From that interview she does seem lonely, and there are regrets, but I won't go farther than that right now.

Her ascendant and its ruler describe a very beautiful woman. Both are in the influence of both benefics. <snip>

Very beautiful and I think you've got the physical description pretty accurate. I could not give you a height or weight for her physical prime, but I think the overall picture you paint is correct. At least it seems that way from the photographs I've seen.

To skip ahead: Married twice one son by each marriage. Both marriages failed. I don't know her marital status today, but I would guess she is single. I'm not sure of the social status of her husbands, probably not higher than middle class. I'm sure they knew who she was when they married her.

Infamy? Yup.

Gabe writes:

The native has a contentious relationship with authority, though this is mitigated by reception, so I don't think she would get into too much trouble.

There is so much in this statement that is true, both what was said and what was unsaid but still shown by the chart. She was in a contentious relationship with authority, but it went a lot higher than, say, scuffles with the local police or magistrates. After all, she wouldn't be famous if that is all that happened in her life. The Sun is authority to be sure, but it is also something else along the same lines.

So what kind of deeds would she perform? Mercury conjoined Venus would point to deeds of beauty mixed with contention. They are trine Jupiter in the 1st sign, so this is leading to her body being used. Mercury and Venus are in the 9th sign, so there may be a religious or foreign connection, and their ruler Saturn is in the 12th sign, so this may lead to imprisonment or otherwise being subjected to her enemies, enslavement.

Very accurate, and only a shade misleading. She did go to prison, briefly for something, superficially at least was only peripheral to the things that brought her fame. Some think there was more to it.

So Tom, is the native known for some contentious sexual activity, involving perhaps foreign persons or figures of authority?

Heh heh heh What do you think?

Tom

I guessed who this is (but won't say) from the 10th house Venus mutual reception with 12th house Saturn and I must say you are all doing superb astrological detective work because you are so close you are RED HOT!

Tara

Hi,

Tom wrote

Just describe what you see

I?ll do that with a 3-dimensional eye. I?ve learned a lot from your previous traditional analyses, so I add some points from the 3D perspective.

Taking the skyview, the constellation Taurus is rising. The Moon, Mars and Saturn are on the chest and back of the bull, and Jupiter is sitting on one of his horns. Quite a militant combination which contrasts with the softness of the rising Moon / culminating Venus.

The Moon, although not conjunct the Ascendant, is just rising at the eastern horizon (altitude -0?11?, assuming the birth time is not far off). Together with Jupiter also rising soon and Venus and Mercury culminating, this is a strong indication of an acting talent. So she could be an actress or a politician. I favour the actress, because Venus culminating does not fit the politician very well; politics is usually not very aesthetic.

Mercury and Venus are retrograde but will turn direct within the following 2 and 18 hours respectively after birth. I don?t know how to interpret that but I think it certainly is remarkable.

There are three Primary Directions to the Angles (in mundo, Ptolemy key) in the first five years of her life: Moon, Venus and Jupiter. I would guess from that she had a happy early childhood. (although Pluto reached the IC in 1944 ? home bombed in WW2?).
The Sun reached the MC in 1971 ? should have been a good year career wise.

Best regards
Ren?

It allows for several possibilities: 1) the woman married but was unfaithful and her unfaithfulness brought some kind of ?public? embarrassment to her husband, or 2) She never married but was some kind of well known ?Madam? or ?Call girl?

Hi, Steven
Maybe the part of "religion and honesty of woman" acc Bonnati at 16Aquarius can share a light in this issue. The natal chart talks of her desires and reputation... the dispositor of part is saturn in a bestial sign, conj mars in detriment, so we have something going on here.

But the part is in a fix sign, and the most human of all, so I think she could be a Madam, but I am not sure if she qualifies as a "fornicatrix". Also the part is beholded by both benefics, and both malefics !

Maybe the part of "religion and honesty of woman" acc Bonnati at 16Aquarius can share a light in this issue.

I?d like to elaborate on this part, which is mentioned by Bonatti and elaborated upon by Robert Zoller in his first book, The Arabic Parts in Astrology. The formula for the part is ASC + Venus ? Moon. In this chart it falls at 16 Aquarius 57. The quotes from Bonatti are from Zoller?s translation. Zoller writes:

?Our first illustrations involve the part of religion and of the honesty of the woman, or pars religionis et honestatis mulieris (discussed in section 10 of Bonatti?s treatise). If this part is ?in a fixed sign or in the aspect of any of the lords of the dignities of the sign in which it is [placed] or of any benefic, the woman will be honest and religious even if she may be longing for coitus. But if the malefics aspect it without reception and it is in a mobile sign, the woman will be excessive in her desire for coitus, giving herself to men ? for a cheap price, and she will be in every way a fornicatrix.? The part is found by taking the distance from the Moon to Venus, in the order of the signs, by day or night and then projecting this from the ascendant.? - p. 139

?Honesty? was often used as a synonym for ?chastity.? Obviously this part is intended to reveal information a prospective husband would want but might not be able to obtain in any other way. To my knowledge there is no similar part for men, and so, yes, the double standard has a long and honorable history.

Zoller goes on to warn the astrologer that even if all the requirements set down by Bonatti are met, it could be dangerous to conclude the native is a prostitute, and quickly announce the finding. "So I see, at the very least, you do a little hooking on the side," will not win the admiration of the client. Zoller then goes on to instruct the astrologer to delineate the chart first, to see if such tendencies are indicated in the chart. Callanan says that even if you think you find them, it is best to keep your conclusions to yourself unless and until the client admits to such activity on her own.

Since there is so much really good astrology so far, I think I'll post the identity of the native after Steven posts his work on motivations etc. I have to confess I had no idea this was such a good chart for study until I read all of these posts. I even debated posting it. I knew it had potential but I didn't know it had so much potential, and I think we can get a good discussion going once the identity and facts are out. I don't want this to go stale waiting for a result.

Tom

Hello,

Parameters:
Triplicity/Trigon rulerships: Dorotheus
Terms/Bounds: Egyptian
House: Whole sign

If a person comes to me and ask his/her fame/honor/dignity in the eyes of the public, I would check:
1) The predominator?s angularity
2) The predominator?s sign?s gender (not so important)
3) The trigon/triplicity Lords of the predominator
4) The doryphories of the predominator
5) The 4 Lots and their Lords (Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis) with an emphasis to the Exaltation
6) The parans of the fixed stars

The predominator is usually the main luminary (sun by day or moon by night) provided it is not cadent.

The native is born during daytime making her main luminary the sun. The sun in her chart is not cadent (it is angular under whole sign houses system) making the sun her predominator. The predominator (sun) is angular (good!).

The predominator is in feminine sign ? (Ptolemy would want to see the luminaries in masculine sign) so, not so good (this is not so important compared to angularity ).

The predominator (sun) is in Pisces ? Trigon Lords are Venus, Mars and Moon. Venus is cadent (and retrograde) ? not so good for first third of life. Mars is cadent and detriment ? also not so good in the second third of life (with Mars in the 12th ? something to do with imprisonment?). The last third of life is Moon which is cadent but at least in Exaltation (better?).

Doryphories of the predominator (sun) are Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. This means that ALL five planets are doryphories of the predominator (sun) which is really good!!!

The benefics are (of course) Venus and Jupiter. Using Hellenistic definition of sect, Jupiter is the benefic in sect. In Hellenistic astrology, Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are in sect and Moon, Venus and Mars are out of sect for day charts. Similarly, Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are out of sect and Moon, Venus and Mars are in sect for night charts. Note that this is different from the medieval definition of sect. The medieval concept of sect relative to the horizon and signs are considered as rejoicing conditions in Hellenistic astrology.

So, the best benefic (benefic in sect) is Jupiter ? and Jupiter is the Doryphory of the predominator (or the main luminary, the sun) and Jupiter is angular (very, very good!). When Jupiter is in sect and in the doryphory of the main luminary and it is also angular ? it is really, really good!!!

The 4 Lots: Lot of Fortune 28Leo48, Lot of Spirit 14Pis35, Lot of Exaltation 22Can31, Lot of Basis 20Sco54. Lord of Fortune is Sun, Lord of Spirit is Jupiter, Lady of Exaltation is Moon and Lord of Basis is Mars.

The tenth sign from the Lot of Fortune is considered one of the most important places of fame and recognition. The tenth sign from the Lot of Fortune is Taurus and she has 4 planets there (Moon, Mars, Saturn and Uranus).
Moon (Lady of Exaltation) and Mars (Lord of Basis) are located in the tenth sign of Lot of Fortune AND they are conjunct ? very good!
Moon (Lady of Exaltation) is in her domicile rulership ? very good indeed!!! Exaltation and fame is hers for the taking. Mars (Lord of Basis) however is in detriment ? a tinge of infamy as well (conjoin Saturn really doesn?t help). Uranus there means rough diamond sort of fame ? grass root kind of fame.

The Lord of Fortune (Sun) is also in the sign of Lot of Spirit (in Hellenistic jargon, the Lord of Fortune hands over to Spirit) and they are angular ? also very good!

Emphasis on Lot of Exaltation (in Cancer) ruled by Moon in Taurus (in Exaltation) and aspects the Lot of Exaltation itself ? also very good!

All in all she will be famous or infamous. More likely infamous!!!

Generally, in chart we don?t want to see Mercury (the rational mind) to be in conjunction with Venus (the desire) as your mind can be ?corrupted? by your own bodily desires especially if they are afflicted. In her chart both Venus and Mercury are cadent and retrograde and also afflicted by the squares from Mars and Saturn! To be sure we should look at the domicile dispositor of both Mercury and Venus. It is Saturn which is in the 12th and conjunct another malefic Mars who is also detriment!!! The reception Saturn gives to Venus and Mercury only means that she can get benefits from wheeling-dealing and behind the scene ventures. Reminds me of an ancient astrologer who said that corrupted and afflicted Venus with Mercury in a woman?s chart inclines her towards prostitution. (Yeah, I know? too male chauvinistic). This is more so as Venus and Mercury are probably her profession planets (both rising before the sun and although not in the tenth sign, they are close to MC). In whole sign house system, the tenth sign is Pisces, ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is in Gemini (suggesting 2 careers/professions at the same time) and is detriment ? strongly suggests alternative or non-mainstream career?