Hi folks,

A friend of mine has just asked a question that has me a little bit stumped...it's rather complicated, I'm afraid.

Background: Apropo to a Mercury retrograde, she recently sent an email to a former lover via a shared email account of theirs that she kept open...just in case. They haven't had any contact for three years, but she still carries a torch for him. She is hoping that some fit will come upon him and he will check this email account (which she doesn't think he's done so far, but being that he shares control over it, he may just 'pretend' he doesn't check it, if you see what I mean...)

She wanted to know if he'll check the email, read the current missive, and respond.

14 June 2008
9:26 pm
Tucson, AZ.

So. Capricorn rises; Saturn with POF in 8th house (I think this means that she is craving his 'value' of her still...). Moon in Scorpio, signifying Mr. X, has just left Via Combusta in the 10th house. There is no reception or applying aspect between Saturn/Moon.

This is mostly a 3rd house question (she is not asking about reconciliation at this point, only communication), with Mars, 3rd significator, clearly placed in the 7th house.

The Moon does indeed apply to Mars, by square, but with reception. So it seems to me that there is a slight possibility that he will check the email (can email be checked with reluctance??). Will he write back? Dunno. There is no aspect with Venus, his 3rd ruler: she is combust in the 5th house and void of course, if Venus can be VOC. Do I even need to look at Venus in this chart, since this is a joint communication method?

BUT, what has me curious and thus asking this question, is that the next immediate aspect after the square to Mars is a sextile to Jupiter (in fall, retrograde) sitting right on the Ascendant. Mars is at 20.19 Leo, and Jupiter is at 20.22 Capricorn. Jupiter in this chart rules the 11th, 12th, and 2nd houses. Can I extrapolate 'secret hopes of being valued' or something like that?

Now, Jupiter in fall and retrograde ruins its character as a benefic, doesn't it? Bonatti says that a planet thus debilitated destroys all possibility of the matter being perfected, even though Jupiter is in the Moon's triplicity. I'm curious as to why Jupiter is there, in the first place, and what any of yous think it might mean.

It's all too complicated for me to figure out, and I don't quite know what to tell her. Any takers on this? Does the translation of light here mean anything? Nothing?

Thanks!
Gunhilde

Hi Gunhilde

Keeping it simple... Moon will square Mars, so if anything, the communication will cause stress to the Moon, because of the nature of the aspect, and the fact that the Moon is in her fall.

Further, she is received into her detriment by Jupiter- so who or what is Jupiter? You choose: the querents hopes and wishes, her secret enemies (or her self-undoing), and her money. And being conjunct the ASC, it afflicts the querent for sure, and won't do the quesited much good.

Plus querents sig is in the 8th - anguish of mind. POF conjunct Saturn doesn't look promising either.

Nuff said,

Susie

So to cut to the chase: will he check the email? This is what the applying square says, possibly, although a square with reception brings the matter about with difficulty. I don't see how checking an email account brings 'difficulty', but perhaps you're right that the difficulty comes afterwards.

I don't see why, however, since apparently the email message isn't anything hot and heavy, just a simple 'Hi, I'm thinking of you, how are you?' sort of message.

I wonder if Jupiter in this instance doesn't represent the 11th house only (it has nothing to do with money, so we can rule this out), in which case it probably rules her hopes that he will read/respond. Jupiter exalts Mars, after all; and the Moon receives Mars by domicile.

I suppose we could extrapolate that yes, he will check the email, but as there is no reception between Moon/Saturn, he probably won't respond, which is why Jupiter is in fall and retrograde on the Ascendant.

Any other ideas?

GH

Yes, he will probably check the email.

And although the original question seems innocent enough (will he check his email), the larger question behind the question is more along the lines of: "Does he still think about me/love me etc, and if yes, will he do something about it?". Don't you agree?
But as Mars receives the Moon into her fall, he ain't going to like the message.

That the sig of the 11th of hopes and wishes is retrograde is fitting - she is thinking of the past, and wishes for it to "re-occur". And in fall - she feels bloody awful about it.

I would tell her that she will be feeling better about this situation, just as soon as Jupiter turns direct.... in September. Seeing that she's been carrying the torch for him for the past 3 years, September then doesn't seem too far off.

My 2 pennies,

Susie

Thanks for looking, SusieN. I suspect you're right about the 'feeling bloody awful' part, as well as the secret hopes behind it (Jupiter ruler 11th/12th).

I am really curious, however, about the reception with Moon/Mars. She showed me the email...it really isn't all that bad...more like a 'sorry I was such a twit back then, I hope you're well' thing...nothing at all about reconciliation or love. So why would the Moon be so antipathetic? Maybe he's still mad at her?

Well, I guess we'll find out!

Cheers,
GH

Sorry to bump this back to the top, but I had a question: can we get a timing out of this chart for the ex's possible reading of the email (the querent was asking since it hasn't happened yet)?..which is a further question:

Can one get a time scale out of *any* chart, or does the horary question actually have to contain the word "when"?

The reason I ask is that I see a lot of questions that involve 'Will...X happen' and many people then answer, "Yes it will happen in two somethings which means two months". But I am sometimes doubtful of the accuracy of this type of interpretation...is timing inherent in most questions?

Thanks,
GH

Hi
I looked over your horary. I really like relationship horaries.

The Moon separates from Saturn, and with these two sigs there's no possiblity of translation (because no planet is faster than the Moon), nor collection (because no planet is heavier than Saturn). Thus we must have an aspect. There is none. I don't think anything substantial will come of this question.

The Moon is applying to her ruler, Mars. This means that the Moon, and potentially its actions and timing, will be dictated in some way by Mars.

Did you notice that Mars is sitting right smack on the South Node? In addition Mars is applying opposite Neptune. I don't think the e-mail message will be well-received or responded to.

Mars is also almuten of the ASC, highlighting that the querent identifies quite strongly with Mars. However, the quality that Mars has is fixed, unfortunate and disappointing, and this is determining the Moon's actions. Mars is debilitated and fiery and the Moon is emotions: I wouldn't be surprised if the quesited is angered by the e-mail even if he were pleased initially to hear from the querent.

The Moon will also be on the Bendings when she perfects with Mars, a turning point often for the worse. The bendings is usually a bad omen according to Lehman.

Jupiter is in bad shape. When Jupiter is damaged, he tends to exaggerate, to go too far; that is, he promises more than he will deliver. All talk and no action. Jupiter is 11H lord: perhaps the querent believed that appearing friendly would be enough to improve this relationship. She is way off target. Jupiter is so weak, meaning friendship is weak. Even on the ASC--the strongest point in a chart--all the querent is in position to express is exaggerated hopes and wishes of being friends, no promise of fulfillment. I say this because Saturn the principal sig is in the 8H of worry, also emphasizing the weak position of the querent.

IMO the querent needs to do something more substantive than just e-mail, needs to do something to improve her control over her feelings. Sigs in the 8H in relationship horaries often imply querents who are ruled by their fearful emotions, by worries of rejection and failure so that they fail to see where they do have power to act to improve things. Saturn is conj. the POF, while the POF ruler and Saturns's ruler is Mercury applying square in a mild mutual reception from the house of pleasure. Even though Mercury is Rx he is still quite strong. Think about what that might mean for the querent.

As for timing, if we take the symbolic route the Moon is angular and fixed=months. 4-5 months before quesited sees the e-mail in my estimation.

Good Luck


1000Camels

1000Camels, you mentioned the bendings of the Moon in your post. I have not heard of this before! Have you discussed this anywhere on the forum? I would like to learn more.

Keren

Keren,
The importance of the Bendings of the Moon's Nodes is a concept advocated by Lee Lehman in her book "The Martial Art of Horary." I don't agree with everything she writes here but it's an excellent publication at any rate, lots of charts to examine.

The Bendings have to do with crisis, signifying a turning point for a significator located there. And of course in horary, any sig in crisis is not in a good position no matter how much dignity they possess. The Bendings are considered an accidentally difficult, unfortunate position usually for the worse.

I can attest this in a chart I did recently. The significator struggled and struggled to get what she wanted, reaping fewer and fewer tangible results in the process. Her significator was very powerful though cadent. What I did not see at the time of the chart was the closely applying conjunction of the sig to the Bendings by antiscion. I could not understand why this sig's effectiveness continued to diminish until a fellow astrologer pointed this impending conjunction out to me (a cadent but dignified sig to my mind means a good person in a difficult situation but who has the wherewithall and means to correct it). The Bendings explained it all.

Thank you, 1000Camels, for that incisive delineation! Like KH, I was also intrigued by 'the Bendings' (it sounds so Harry Potter), and will experiment with this in future charts.

You said:

IMO the querent needs to do something more substantive than just e-mail, needs to do something to improve her control over her feelings. Sigs in the 8H in relationship horaries often imply querents who are ruled by their fearful emotions, by worries of rejection and failure so that they fail to see where they do have power to act to improve things. Saturn is conj. the POF, while the POF ruler and Saturns's ruler is Mercury applying square in a mild mutual reception from the house of pleasure. Even though Mercury is Rx he is still quite strong. Think about what that might mean for the querent.

I was wondering about this passage; in particular, the first part (needs to do something substantive to improve control of her feelings) and the last bit about Mercury. I'm not sure I 'get' this...for sure, knowing her well, I would say that she is plagued by doubts and insecurities - I think fear of rejection was always a theme in this relationship of hers (going both ways, in fact; from my view he was just as insecure, if not more so)...but what about this Rx Mercury in the house of pleasure? Do you mean, 'show up on his doorstep wearing a negligee' take-control-of-her-feelings?

Oh, she'll *love* that!

Best,
GH

Hi Gunhilde,
Hey maybe the nightie would work. It's certainly more pointed and direct than e-mail.

I don't know your friend so what I'm about to say may sound... dispassionate. Please excuse.

Let's go back to the horary itself. The sigs are Saturn and the Moon. They are planetary enemies. The Moon is weak in Saturn's signs and Saturn weak in the Moon's signs. Thus we have a major power differential in this situation (Lehman sums up these relationships quite well in MAH). The two have very different agendas.

Your friend should ask herself why is she so intrested in a relationship where the paticipants had such different ideas and needs, and which is so obviously a part of her P-A-S-T? The sigs are separating! This is sure sign indicating that what they had is in the past. Why is your friend holding on to a relationship that offers nothing that would satisfy her needs for attention and communication?

The Moon in the chart fluctuates by nature, and is in fall. Is fixed there. That does not sound like someone who would be attentive and interested, who can and will act. It sounds like disappointment. The last spect between the two sigs was a sextile with very little reception. Saturn knows this but is still hoping an e-mail to a little used account will change this. This makes me skeptical of why the querent asked this question in the first place. (Saturn is the 8H is not a good significator for anything except a bank. )

Then we come to the incongruity of e-mail itself, a single message so loaded down with hopes and wishes that the querent actually feels this electronic fluff will turn things around for her. Talk about pie in the sky! See that Mars (the message), it is opposite Neptune. What was she thinking? Delusional is the polite term.

Assuming that an e-mail will overcome a relationship where one significator can't act and the other is afraid to is rather short-sighted. Relationships take time and effort. They grow or fade over time. To grow them, they require a person to extend themselves and to be vulnerable. A querent signified by peregrine Saturn does not want to be vulnerable.

So instead of telling the quesited the truth, that she misses him and thinks of him often (separating sextile with the last reception in triplicity), instead she lied and told him she wants to be his friend. Mars opposite Neptune is a lie, a deception. And that Jupiter, the symbol of the hoped for friendship, is retrograde and in fall and doesn't offer anything substantial. Jupiter is in the ASC! This characterizes how she was acting when the question was asked!

In short, this is a person who is not very in touch with her feelings. With what she wants and what she is in position to get and/or deliver. If she really wanted this man, she would count on more than a puny e-mail to convince him to revisit a relationship that has ended. It doesn't sound like she really wants the quesited at all.

That Mercury in the 5H Rx is about going over something, thinking about something, re-thinking things. Querent ought to re-think what would make her happy! What kind of communication would she enjoy? Or maybe Mercury is a man whom she's dated in the past, and she goes back to him, I don't know.

At any rate, the querent may come to understand that the quesited has no power to offer anything to her (Moon in fall and in no aspect to Mercury). Querent will have to find the strength to give Mercury to herself. If she wants more ideas, read them. If she wants to get more e-mail then write more often to her real friends. If she wants to go to listen to book authors and music, she will have to take the initiative. And in this way feel better and get some control and perspective on her feelings.


That's just my two cents. Hope I didn't sound too harsh.

Best,
1000Camels

Holy smoke...that wasn't harsh, it was brilliant! I will (carefully) impart all of this to her. I think she will probably agree with most of it; IMO she's hung on to the idea of this relationship for too long, but you can't convince anyone of anything!

I'm really grateful for your thorough explanations. Thanks a million.

Best,
GH