Skyscript Astrology Forum

But how about the Moon squaring Mars and Saturn in the 12th? Okay, Mars and Saturn are both poorly posited being cadent and retrograde, but the Moon is moving from Mars to Saturn and Mars is in fact receiving it in its term and face. So Mars is giving at least some of its disposition, nature and virtue to the Moon. Saturn in turn is the next planet the Moon will aspect. There comes at least some of the needed malefic influence.

Usually we would limit ourselves to domicile and exaltation rulers.

Hi Tom
In the matter of dignity and reception, most of the familiar traditional authorities talk about sign or exaltation rulership, or a combination of at least two of the minor dignities, in which case term and face would be considered relevant. (But I hasten to add that I have no idea what the stance of Morin is with regard to this!)

When I worked with Dorian's temperament system a while back, I got the distinct impression that it's necessary to look at the planet, or planets, that represent the dominant humour once you've worked out what that is. Which in Joni's case means the Moon. So that the aspects it receives etc show how she goes about being phlegmatic. I don't know much about her so won't try and tease it out, but I can imagine that, with the aspects the Moon is involved with, this could make sense.

This is a working hypothesis that I offer in case anyone's interested in trying it out; it seemed to work well with the charts I looked at, but I didn't devote months to the exercise. One of the first charts I looked at, which gave me the idea in the first place, was John McEnroe's. He comes out as predominantly sanguine, which didn't seem to make sense temperament-wise given his famously short fuse. But sanguine Jupiter in his chart is opp Mars and square Pluto; that seems to make sense.

Hi Gary,

I recall your observation about McEnroe and think about it now and then, but I've come to a more obvious conclusion: he is sanguine. I'll get back to that in a minute, but first I want to address something else you said:

When I worked with Dorian's temperament system a while back, I got the distinct impression that it's necessary to look at the planet, or planets, that represent the dominant humour once you've worked out what that is. Which in Joni's case means the Moon. So that the aspects it receives etc show how she goes about being phlegmatic. I don't know much about her so won't try and tease it out, but I can imagine that, with the aspects the Moon is involved with, this could make sense.

The way I was taught is that the significator of the manners as taught by Ptolemy (Book III I think) is how the temperament is expressed. The planet that represents the dominant humor is relevant, but less so than manners. These are usually two planets and they are the ones that most engage Mercury and the Moon: the rational and imaginative qualities in other words it shows how our mind works and therefore how the temperament is expressed.

I don't have McEnroe's chart, but I do recall Patton's. He came out melancholic sanguine when one would naturally assume he was choleric. However if we look at his significator of the manners, Mars in Virgo on the IC, it makes perfect sense. As a youth Patton was enthralled by the tales of his family's military adventures (they were considerable) and decided he wanted to be like them (4th house). He became a warrior in personality as well as in tactics (Virgo is analytical). Patton hated the nickname "Old Blood and Guts - very martial but not one a melancholic or sanguine type would relish. He rehearsed his fiery speeches to the troops in front of mirrors. He read military history extensively and studied tactics and strategy. These are sanguine traits but he manifested them with his Mars.

Doesn't McEnroe have Mars at or near the ASC? Furthermore, if you listen to him when he announces tennis events, he is anything but short tempered. He's rather analytical. He is older than he was as a player, of course, but his famous temper, to my knowledge didn't show up much anywhere other than the tennis court. He used to say of his now ex wife Tatum O'Neill that she was the female John McEnroe, but he was referring to his reputation and perhaps to her temperament.

I try to explain it this way: temperament is not the personality. I'm defining personality as those character traits that we easily see. Not the stuff that is buried. A psychologist would probably incorporate everything seen and unseen into his definition of temperament. It is possible that the temperament is visible, but in cases like that, the choleric might have Mars on the ASC where it makes the personality and temperament impossible to miss.

Tom

Hi Tom, apologies for the delay in my reply, I was away.

The data I have for McEnroe (from the AA's databank) is:

22.30 Wiesbaden, Germany 16th Feb 1959 - 19 Libra rising.

His Mars isn't angular, though it is conjunct his Moon.

I never got on with the idea that one should work with both 'temperament' and 'manners' - either theoretically, or in (a little bit of) practice. If anyone finds that they get good results from somehow combining the two, or indeed from focussing on 'manners' instead of 'temperament', I'd be interested to hear about it.

Despite her success, Joni Mitchell is on record as complaining bitterly that she has never received the recognition she deserves. She attributes this to sexism.

You can see this discontent in the t-square. Sometimes out of discontent comes great ambition, especially when Saturn is the apex of a t-square.

In the sense of having a big impact, Saturn IS a strong malefic in this chart.

Tara