Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi all

I was wondering if someone here is familiar with the works of Ken Wilber. I have been diving in his work these past few months and I see many interesting similarities with astrology.

I think his models like AQAL, his basic map, and Altitude, his developmental map of humans as well as history and societies, are very interesting and in many ways similar to the zodiac.

So I was curious if others know his work and what they think of it.

Annemieke

I am not familiar with this persons work. Feel free to enter a practical example relating to some mundane situation. That might be interesting.

What does AQAL stand for?

AQAL stands for ?all quadrants all levels? and it is his basic map. In essence it is the subject and object on an individual and collective level.

There is the individual/interior, the collective/interior, the individual/exterior and the collective/exterior, set in a quadrant. Left is interior, right exterior, up individual and bottom collective.

Here is some more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber ... _Levels.22

A practical example of a mundane situation might be his Altitudemap with stages of development in history and society. He uses levels of development to explain the differences in worldview and along with that the difficulty of communication with other cultures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber ... _or_stages

AnneMieke, I tried to post this to you personally but not sure it made it. So, here it is for the thread.

I have been obsessed with relating AQAL into astrological and Gestalt process.
I have search extensively for astrological references in the Integral, Wilber, Spiral Dynamics but haven't found much so far.

What's stumping me now is this:
Contemplation on the astrological wheel is very much about polarities and the integration of, for example, Aries v Scorpio. Then some consideration of evolving through the "memes" toward higher consciousness.

I have a problem with the graphical relationships of Wilber quadrants. They are not graphically polarized. They are simply X v Y axis, very two dimensional. I'm thinking that the "it" quadrant (UR) should be Lower Right and the "its" quadrant should be Upper Right. That way the four quads would have symmetrical polarity.

Additionally, the astrology wheel is divided into Left= Self, Right=Other. Upper = Outer, Lower= Inner. That's not exactly isometric to AQAL's Interior/Exterior, Singular/Plural.

AQAL doesn't provide a continuous vector relationship (like astrology's 360 degree wheel) that would show, for example, where the "center" of "I" really is and what polarity would present itself for Integral development: resolution of dialogue. Which, by the way, is the stage of consciousness that would enable an evolution from First Tier to Second Tier (as in Spiral Dynamics).

And, by the way, the Gestalt relationship is summed up in what I call the Gestalt Quaternion (ripped off from Jung's Quaternio: sensing, thinking, feeling, intuition and references in Aion). This also relates to Wilber's 3-2-1 process. Interesting stuff!
http://www.branam.com/gestalt/gestalt-pillow-talk.shtml

Pardon my geometric language and attempt to summarize the complexity. Hope you can translate this into consciousness perspectives.

What do you think? Can we talk?

Also, see an isometric relationship between Gestalt dialogue and Astrology:

http://www.branam.com/gestalt/gastaltastro.shtml

Hi Kenan

Great to see you are interested in relating Integral theory with Astrology. Like you, I did not find much about that relation. And when I started to try and combine them, I could see why. It was almost impossible to put them together in a model. As many similarities as there seem to be at first sight, it is all just to different to fit together.

But I just had to make a model that integrates them both and so I kept trying. And I finally got a model that I am satisfied with. But for that to happen, I had to alter, rename and just look at both models a bit different and I had to turn the Zodiac upside down.

The result is:

?It? (UR, personal outside) is aries, taurus, gemini.
?I? (UL, personal inside) is cancer, leo, virgo.
?We? (LL, collective inside) is libra, scorpio, sagittarius.
?Its? (LR, collective outside) is capricorn, aquarius, pisces.
About Jung?s sensing, thinking, intuition and feeling, those I use in a diagram where feeling and intuition are both what I call ?potential? and sensing and thinking are both ?structure?.

Intuition and thinking are both ?active? and sensing and feeling are both ?passive?.

For convenience I call them resp: body, mind, spirit, soul so that I can call the signs for example ?primordial spirit? (aries) or ?universal mind? (aquarius).
Further I use the Zodiac for Wilbers other system called Altitude. That is even more difficult to explain in a message, but you can find it on my blog where I made a first attempt to picure it. http://www.mindstructures.com/altitude/

This is in very short how I see the relationship and I would love to hear what you (or others) think.

Good stuff! I'll need to time to get my mind around it. I'll digest your blog.

I, too, tried many rotations and inversals (?) and only got confused. (Years ago, I tried flipping the natal chart to test the idea of perspectives from the self to perspectives from others. Example, how do others "see" an aries versus how an aries "feels." Analogous to helio centric versus earth centric.)

Meanwhile, I was reading Spiral Dynamics this morning and was able to see more dimensions. Plus, the "devil of dialogue," the simultaneous "for every actions there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Both the astrological wheel and AQAL are x/y axis and perhaps a z dimension is needed for a proper integration. Spiral Dynamics introduces a z axis and possibly more. For example, the dynamics of interaction between inner awareness and outer awareness results in a "change of levels" to a higher order of dialogue... "moving up" and "out," expanding the spiral of interaction.

Complex! Internal/external awareness, self/other conceptualization, and singular/plural are all different axi. ??

I may have to buy that 3-D graphics program after all. Duh!

This is all pretty messy, I know, but something will emerge out of the chaos. Let's continue to experiment. (I'm a sagge, of course :-) http://www.branam.com/personal/KDB-natal-chart.gif

Any multidimensional thinkers on this thread? Help us out.

Meanwhile, Saturday honeydoes await...

kenan wrote:Spiral Dynamics introduces a z axis and possibly more. For example, the dynamics of interaction between inner awareness and outer awareness results in a "change of levels" to a higher order of dialogue... "moving up" and "out," expanding the spiral of interaction.

I also like to use a spiral approach. If I understand it all well, the integral concept of Altitude is based on Spiral Dynamics. But for me to understand it better, I use the model of the Zodiac for both. And the Zodiac as cycles within cycles, every time on another level.

Complex! Internal/external awareness, self/other conceptualization, and singular/plural are all different axi. ??

Very complex indeed. Is there a difference between self, personal and individual? Is 'other' the opposite and if yes, from what? Is internal/external the same as subjective/objective?

Is all keeping me thinking for some time now. And it seems that every concept is used different by everyone. Would be great if there was some kind of agreed upon basic model that includes 'everything' :-)

Ah! Yes! TOE: Theory of Everything...
Which is a clue. TOE or the parts of our anatomy that touch the ground, the Embodiment, the Make Manifest, resulting in the State of Being... for an individual. For society, Law and Order: BLUE.



This is not the time for even a higher order of BLUE. These are times for change. Many possibilities. Clashing Memes that both resonate and clash. New Memes, old memes. Yes, we play the "fitting game" as a basic instinct, basic cognitive process of adaptation, seeking to harmonize and Feel Good.

Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable. Time for Mutable.
Comon language? Astrology still works for me. Sagittarians require four feet on the ground, Pisces can swim up stream, Scorpio dives deep.

Zero Point Field holds hope for me>

Until then, music helps. Dancing/singing is the ultimate integrative activity for simplicity of complexity. Be Here Now
OM........... :-)

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kenan wrote:This is not the time for even a higher order of BLUE.

I absolutely agree. I think it is time to take the individuality of people and build upon that.

The developmental stage after Blue (which Wilber calls Amber) is Orange (Science and logic) and then Green (all views are equal).

The next stage is called different at several places, but I see the essential need for individual viewpoints that have to be discussed. Discussed deeply and with respect for each others views. Or as David Bohm would say, in dialogue. Entertain each others views, even (or maybe especially) those that seem opposed.

Until then, music helps.

I indeed think that music helps and is capable of resonating with our feelings. Leonard Bernstein said that music can ?name the unnamable? and ?communicate with our interior lives?. And I really think so too.

I'm thinking about it :-)
(Mercury in Scorpio/1st house)

Annemieke,

I too have read a lot of Wilber's work. Pleasantly surprised to see his name mentioned on Skyscript!

Going more deeply into the Buddhist/post-dualistic realms... I see no need to build a system relating AQAL to astrology. Astrology works perfectly well on its own, informed by the principles of AQAL and Wilber's other ideas.

It's kinda like Tarot and astrology. Various people have tried to put them together in various different ways but the fact remains - Tarot and astrology may speak on the same topics, but they do so in two separate languages. Like English and German. Both say the same thing, but expressed slightly differently.

Any attempt to squish the two into one has a distinctly unsatisfactory result. In squishing them together, a great deal of subtlety and depth is lost.

I find having many languages preferable to just one "uber-language". Many voices allow many observations, colours, flavours... My vote is to be multi-lingual as it were, to entertain as many different schools and systems of thought as possible.

Wilber (Buddhism-informed) describes the importance of the I-AM or the inner stillness or whatever labels one wishes to point to it with. Connection and communication between different systems, such as Tarot and astrology, or the AQAL model and the Zodiac, happens in this stillness, the silent receptive/intuitive space, not in the realms of the mind. We do not need to force English and German to merge. We can enjoy speaking both, knowing that we are all the richer for seeing the world through two languages.

What I mean to say is, even Wilber states that his model is just a model, just "a finger pointing to the moon". Astrology is another finger. So is Tarot. I like having many signposts, all of them slightly different. Perhaps that way there is a greater chance I will see the moon!

Keren