I asked this question regarding a relationship. I am Saturn in Virgo (being much older than he is). Using Lee Lehman's rule of using the 5th house ruler of a romantic interest that one has NOT lived with, he is ruled by Mercury in Capricorn.

The two planets are in mutual reception and also apply to a trine. My take on mutual receptions, especially when they're representing the significators and are applying and in each other's dignities, is that the two people are coming together.

And, if you use the 7th house as the significator of the "other person" the Moon is in Virgo and will conjunct the 1st house ruler in Saturn.

I would say this is a "no it's not over", but about 10 days after asking this question, he broke up with me via a letter. I then cast a chart for the time I received the letter as a "Is the Rumor True" chart, and the results were equivocal. (Meaning no fixed angles, rulers were not fixed... Mercury applied to a debilitated Jupiter, one indication the rumor is not true). But on the other hand, the Moon, ruler of the chart was angular and applied to Mercury, ruler of the 3rd, the letter itself. Both applied to the debilitated Jupiter (in its Fall in Capricorn).

Your thoughts?

[img=http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1039/isitoverhu2.th.gif]

Pls post both charts, if you do not mind.

Talking about the Is It Over chart, I would say that using 5th house ruler for his significator is not a good idea. The fact that Jupiter is separating from a trine to Saturn (Jupiter being exalt. ruler of 7th) shows what once was. What is coming to be is shown by moon, applying to a trine to Mercury (probably the letter you receveid). The square between Saturn and Mars + Sun shows your dread and the Moon's path shows what probably was the process of his decision. The fact that Moon is in its own 7th house is an indication of non interest from the partner (being ruler of 7th in its own dignities, but since its not strong there, cause its a day chart, he is unsure, Jupiter in his fall on the AC strenghtens that). Anyway, you two will be reunited again in about 30 days after you received the letter, what means that it is not over, at least for now, since this will have another episode.

Here is the second chart cast for the time I received his "goodbye" letter.
I tried to interpret using the "Is the Rumor True" analysis. However, in speaking with Lee Lehman, she felt the first chart should be the guide since it preceded the actual event. What do you think?

PFN wrote:Pls post both charts, if you do not mind.

Talking about the Is It Over chart, I would say that using 5th house ruler for his significator is not a good idea. The fact that Jupiter is separating from a trine to Saturn (Jupiter being exalt. ruler of 7th) shows what once was. What is coming to be is shown by moon, applying to a trine to Mercury (probably the letter you receveid). The square between Saturn and Mars + Sun shows your dread and the Moon's path shows what probably was the process of his decision. The fact that Moon is in its own 7th house is an indication of non interest from the partner (being ruler of 7th in its own dignities, but since its not strong there, cause its a day chart, he is unsure, Jupiter in his fall on the AC strenghtens that). Anyway, you two will be reunited again in about 30 days after you received the letter, what means that it is not over, at least for now, since this will have another episode.

Thanks so much for your analysis. You are correct in that I was feeling great dread anticipating his decision. (He literally kept me in the dark, so to speak, for two and half-weeks.)

However, I'm curious, how did you arrive at the prediction that we would have another "episode" in 30 days?

Sorry voyagirl, but I'll have to redo my analysis on this, I noticed I commited a mistake about timing and the meaning of the conjunction.

Mars is a natural ruler for separation, combust by the sun it probably means the time he was thinking about the breakup (follow the Moon's path to understand the disposition, it did a trine to Mars and Sun before leaving Leo, the Sun separating from Mars is another co-significator for you, Mars disposition is carried over to you and revealed by the separating combustion). Now, you'll have to follow my thinking here, and agree or not (I'm a begginer, so do not take my position to seriously).

When you cast the chart you wanted to know if it was over. Your position on the 8th house is of a lot of anguish, Mars combust in square aspect points your dread (you're posited in his 2nd, so it means for him as you are "something" for him, mitigated by his position by exaltation in 1st, but the separation aspect shows that as a thing of the past). 8th house means loss, no matter how strong a planet is there. The moon aspect to Mercury is actually his disposition to write the letter, and both of you in mutual reception just means you actually receives what he delivers (that would be a pretty literal way of reception working). Now, the ruler of 3rd is Mars, the content of the letter, that speaks of separation. You waited for 2 and a half weeks for his decision (Sun leaves Mars) and the conjunction between the Moon and you (Saturn) is the moment you actually receives the letter (and not you reunited again, as I formely predicted in the above post, I'm deeply sorry for that). The moment the Moon reaches Mercury and it's path to Saturn is that spam time of 10 days (the fact the house changes from angular to sucedent modulates the timing, he's been thinking of separating for some time now since Mars rules both you by exaltation, his disposition and him, and he was afflicted by the Sun, your co-significator, and Lillly states that the last planet the moon applied is to be given to the querent). Now, the last aspect of the moon, before changing sign, is a trine of the moon to Jupiter on fall (which I sincerely do not know how to interpret, help from others would be appreciated, but I guess it just reinforces the separation).

I think I got a little confused over the developing of the matter and the timing, but his significator entering your eigth is not good, as it would mean a loss for you, and so is not good your positioning there.

About the second map, I think the problem is not about the rumour being true, but about asking if "he will not go back on his decision?" His message to you is not actually a rumour, it's the communication of a decision... the question itself would be regarded as problematic.

Maybe you could derive some meaning for the future out of the following up aspects of the Moon in the next sign, as it applies to a trine to Venus separating from conjunction to North Node in Aquarius (inconjuct Saturn, Quincux with significator always means something that has nothing to do or is averse with "you", in my experience). But the Square between Moon and Mercury comes first, so you will not receive news from the matter for some time. The next aspect to Saturn from moon would be when the Moon reaches midheaven, and all will come to light. That would give us 50 days in my opinion.

Perhaps you could post the first chart, voyagergirl? I think that one will have the answer, not the second one. The second question is a bit dodgy, IMO: you're not asking about a rumour, in truth, and the question you're REALLY asking, was already asked in the first chart. Although having said that, I'm a bit perplexed as to how a conjunction would indicate a split; but I'd need to see the chart to get my bearings.

GH

voyagergirl wrote:I asked this question regarding a relationship. I am Saturn in Virgo (being much older than he is). Using Lee Lehman's rule of using the 5th house ruler of a romantic interest that one has NOT lived with, he is ruled by Mercury in Capricorn.

The two planets are in mutual reception and also apply to a trine. My take on mutual receptions, especially when they're representing the significators and are applying and in each other's dignities, is that the two people are coming together.

And, if you use the 7th house as the significator of the "other person" the Moon is in Virgo and will conjunct the 1st house ruler in Saturn.

I would say this is a "no it's not over", but about 10 days after asking this question, he broke up with me via a letter. I then cast a chart for the time I received the letter as a "Is the Rumor True" chart, and the results were equivocal. (Meaning no fixed angles, rulers were not fixed... Mercury applied to a debilitated Jupiter, one indication the rumor is not true). But on the other hand, the Moon, ruler of the chart was angular and applied to Mercury, ruler of the 3rd, the letter itself. Both applied to the debilitated Jupiter (in its Fall in Capricorn).

Your thoughts?

[img=http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1039/isitoverhu2.th.gif]

Considering 5th house:
-Mercury is under Sun's beams-in 12th house and collides into Uranus-co-ruler of intercepted Aquarius in 1st with a square aspect.

Considering 7th house:
-Leo intercepted in 7th-Sun is seperating from a square of Saturn and Uranus.Moon is not able to translate from Mercury to Saturn in a consecutive manner.Moon to Uranus(via Mercury) is by a square.

In General:
-Venus the natural signifactor of females is conjunct mean NN (I think nodal degree should not be considered here as that would be double jeopardy) suggesting some karmic factor saving you,SN happens to be in 7th(naturally).Maybe this was good for you.


-What could have happened?-Jupiter lord of 11th(a friend) and secret enemy(also rules 12th) is in Fall and conjunct the 1st house cusp.

-I think we should not ignore intercepted signs-they are there for a reason.

Lastly,Did you manage to get his birthday.It will be interesting to see whether his natal nodes align with your 1-7 axis.

best wishes

PD

Gunhilde wrote:Perhaps you could post the first chart, voyagergirl? I think that one will have the answer, not the second one. The second question is a bit dodgy, IMO: you're not asking about a rumour, in truth, and the question you're REALLY asking, was already asked in the first chart. Although having said that, I'm a bit perplexed as to how a conjunction would indicate a split; but I'd need to see the chart to get my bearings.

GH

I kept thinking about what Gunhilde said, and in reality it would be really absurd to see a separation deriving from an applying conjunction...

So I'm going back on my statement again, and I hope that's the last time I do it, I'll be a little more carefull from now on. First thing, Venus is in Quincux, but it's dispositor is still Saturn, so that is a positive testimony. Now, the Moon applies to Mercury in 12th in your domicile. Even without any following aspect, that means that you get the message (the break up letter). So, those 4 degrees are actually those 10 days. There will be a conjunction between Saturn and Moon in 21? Virgo (that gives us 13?). If 4? = 10 days, then 13? = 40 days. Since the house changes to succedent, I would raise this amount of time to 60-70 days. Now, the End of the matter is Venus (4th house from first) and it's in your 1st. Jupiter being exalt ruler for 7th and in its fall shows that he is a little unwilling to return to you, but ultimately that will be the best for him (the positioning of Jupiter on the AC would actually indicate that, and it's about to change signs, and the trine between moon after the conjunction shows his positive decision).

This interpretation only works if we consider that the trine between moon and Mercury is all that was necessary to trigger the "break up letter" event, and the mutual reception indicates that you actually receives it (on your domicile sign).

I believe this scenario to be more likely since for a break up to confirm we would need a hard aspect like square or opposition, or at least no aspect at all fpr the situation to remain the same. Sorry for being so quick on my former answers.

pankajdubey wrote:

voyagergirl wrote:I asked this question regarding a relationship. I am Saturn in Virgo (being much older than he is). Using Lee Lehman's rule of using the 5th house ruler of a romantic interest that one has NOT lived with, he is ruled by Mercury in Capricorn.

The two planets are in mutual reception and also apply to a trine. My take on mutual receptions, especially when they're representing the significators and are applying and in each other's dignities, is that the two people are coming together.

And, if you use the 7th house as the significator of the "other person" the Moon is in Virgo and will conjunct the 1st house ruler in Saturn.

I would say this is a "no it's not over", but about 10 days after asking this question, he broke up with me via a letter. I then cast a chart for the time I received the letter as a "Is the Rumor True" chart, and the results were equivocal. (Meaning no fixed angles, rulers were not fixed... Mercury applied to a debilitated Jupiter, one indication the rumor is not true). But on the other hand, the Moon, ruler of the chart was angular and applied to Mercury, ruler of the 3rd, the letter itself. Both applied to the debilitated Jupiter (in its Fall in Capricorn).

Your thoughts?

[img=http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1039/isitoverhu2.th.gif]

Considering 5th house:
-Mercury is under Sun's beams-in 12th house and collides into Uranus-co-ruler of intercepted Aquarius in 1st with a square aspect.

Considering 7th house:
-Leo intercepted in 7th-Sun is seperating from a square of Saturn and Uranus.Moon is not able to translate from Mercury to Saturn in a consecutive manner.Moon to Uranus(via Mercury) is by a square.

In General:
-Venus the natural signifactor of females is conjunct mean NN (I think nodal degree should not be considered here as that would be double jeopardy) suggesting some karmic factor saving you,SN happens to be in 7th(naturally).Maybe this was good for you.


-What could have happened?-Jupiter lord of 11th(a friend) and secret enemy(also rules 12th) is in Fall and conjunct the 1st house cusp.

-I think we should not ignore intercepted signs-they are there for a reason.

Lastly,Did you manage to get his birthday.It will be interesting to see whether his natal nodes align with your 1-7 axis.

best wishes

PD

His birthdate is Sept. 5, 1967 in Landshtul, Germany at 7:22 p.m.
What happened to cause the break-up? He literally had a panic attack, complete with running out the door and going home to take meds, after he thought he heard me say, "I love you." But I didn't find this out until I got the letter -- 18 days after the incident happened. (He suffers from bi-polar disorder).

Gunhilde wrote:Perhaps you could post the first chart, voyagergirl? I think that one will have the answer, not the second one. The second question is a bit dodgy, IMO: you're not asking about a rumour, in truth, and the question you're REALLY asking, was already asked in the first chart. Although having said that, I'm a bit perplexed as to how a conjunction would indicate a split; but I'd need to see the chart to get my bearings.

GH

Lee Lehman talks about "Is the Rumor True" as a technique to decide whether or not any statement or promise made is true. (In other words, it doesn't have to be a "rumor.") Her only caution is that if someone is hearing news from the news media, that the news must be being broadcast for the first time.

But as to the divination of the 1st horary (and see the posted chart) I was always taught that one simply uses the rulers and looks to see how whether they are in aspect, in addition to using the traditional horary divination techniques. In other words, check to see if there are strictures against judgment, such as a Moon VOC or a too late or too early degree rising.

If you do that, (and use Mercury, ruler of the 5th for him) he's in his own 8th house, too. (The day after I got the break-up letter, in an email, he admitted to being "deeply saddened" by the break-up). In this light, his significator in his eighth indicates his anguish over the break-up, too, or at least some anguish in deciding to break-up.

[img=http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4955/isitovercv9.th.gif]

What could have happened?-Jupiter lord of 11th(a friend) and secret enemy(also rules 12th) is in Fall and conjunct the 1st house cusp.

Maybe because he still has feelings for his ex-wife? (If you use the 5th house of the chart for him, the radical 11th would be his 7th).

I just had an interesting observation about the chart: my ruler, Saturn, is at his Sun/Moon midpoint at 21 Virgo. And his ruler, Mercury, is at my Sun/Moon midpoint, at 8 Capricorn.