Skyscript Astrology Forum

Martha Stewart?s horoscope aggravates and mystifies me on many levels. The main thing I find confusing is the seeming inaccuracy of the sect triplicity rulers in her chart when compared against the known facts of her life.

Her chart is here:
http://tinyurl.com/dzuq7r

I will post the chart here later, when I have time to fiddle around.

Can someone versed in this method comment?

I have been going through Vettius Valens? text, so the procedure, etc. all comes from the Anthology. Valens seems to use this method primarily to ascertain the overall success of the native throughout their lives. I?m using whole signs.

1. Identify the sect ruler: Sun in Leo in a diurnal chart.
2. Identify the triplicity rulers: Sun ? Jupiter ? Saturn
3. Each triplicity ruler is one third of her life. I have previously done a length of life calculation on this chart, and feel comfortable giving each third of Stewart?s life 30 years.

Sun ? in Leo, in 10H, in Venus terms. Sextile Jupiter in Gemini in 8H, trine Mars in Aries in 6H. The first 30 years or so of Stewart?s life should be excellent; and by all accounts, it was. She married a up and coming lawyer/businessman and was very successful as a stockbroker.

Jupiter ? in Gemini, in 8H, in Venus terms. In sect, and oriental. Square Venus in Virgo in 11H, sextile Sun in Leo in 10H, sextile Mars in Aries in 6H. Now, by Valens? method, age 30-60 should not be as illustrious a period in Stewart?s life, as it is governed by a benefic in the 8th house:

?When the benefics are present in [the 8th house], they are ineffective, weak, and unable to impart their own goods. If they should also have authority over the Horoskopos and the Lot, they are found to be even more ineffective and irregular.?

Jupiter does rule Fortuna by domicile, though I believe it is actually Venus which saves the day for her, financially. That is a different discussion, but the point is that it cannot be Jupiter that drives Stewart?s wealth and success.

And yet, it was precisely the period from 30-60 that was very successful for Stewart, who came out with several bestselling entertaining/food books in the early 80s, and her career and wealth took off from there. It was certainly superior to the first third of her life.

Saturn ? in Taurus, in 7H. In its own decan, in sect, and oriental.

According to Valens, this seems a decent placement, though hardly superb, bringing

?an irregular livelihood, especially in old age, yet he will not totally be at a loss; for he will squander what he obtains with calumnies and evil words.?

Stewart is 67 years old, so she is already in the last third of her life. She went to prison, of course, which must be due to Saturn, though it appears her personal fortune has not suffered very much (she is still worth over $600M).

I would love to hear comments from anyone experienced in using this technique.

Thank you!

Nina

I know this technique from the Medieval writers. It's helpful, but it IS vague.

Based on looking at this chart for about 5 minutes, I'll add a few things.

Bonatti says that the career significator can be found a number of ways. The basic way is finding whether Venus, Mars, or Mercury are angular. These are the natural significators of career. At least in Alcabitius houses, Martha Stewart's is Venus, because it's in the 10th and is the only natural career significator that is angular.

Venus certainly describes what she does. Venus is dignified by triplicity and term, but also in fall.

The Sun rules the 10th. It's in Leo, but cadent, though not the weakest of cadent houses. The Sun is essentially dignified by sign and triplicity.

These two testimonies speak of success in her field, which is going to be Venusian by nature, but also will give her fame and recognition from the Sun.

Venus rules her 12th and 7th (again Alcabitius houses). Marriage and career are linked, but it will also cause her downfall since Venus rules the 12th.

Regarding triplicity rulers, Firmicus Maternus talks about how term rulers act as hidden conjunctions. I'm paraphrasing Dr. H here since I don't have Maternus handy right now. However, Jupiter is in Venus' term, so there is going to be a little boost there.

Anyway that's my 5 minute look-through. I know I'm missing a few things here and there.

ninotchka7 wrote: I have been going through Vettius Valens? text, so the procedure, etc. all comes from the Anthology. Valens seems to use this method primarily to ascertain the overall success of the native throughout their lives. I?m using whole signs.

1. Identify the sect ruler: Sun in Leo in a diurnal chart.
2. Identify the triplicity rulers: Sun ? Jupiter ? Saturn
3. Each triplicity ruler is one third of her life.

#3 isn't quite right, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Valens would simply use the diurnal and nocturnal ruler to divide the life; then you'd probably use some combination of the minor years of the trigon lords, their domicile lords, and the years based on the ascensions of the signs the trigon lords are placed in order to determine the time periods the trigon lords were active.

Hi Nina,Jupiter here acts as a "Spearbearer" to an angular and in proper home Sun,amplifying his power,brings kingship.Moreover,Jupiter is an masculine Planet,in Masculine sign,above the horizon in a diurn chart - a very good condition,according to sect position.
Jupiter,lord of fortune and culminating is another feature that brings eminence and power.8 house is a sucedent house - good to position,;off course is "amiss" too,therefore may draw debits to her.

All the best
Gerson

Gabe -

I think you are remembering incorrectly. If you check out Book 2, Chapter 22, Valens gives lots of example charts, where he goes through the exact procedure I describe above, using three lords.

Here is an example, verbatim:

Another (Neugebauer: 10 A.M. May 18, 95 C.E.). The Sun, Hermes in Taurus; the Moon in Aries; Kronos, Ares, Aphrodite, the Horoskopos in Cancer; Zeus in Capricorn; the Lot of Fortune and the Exaltation of the Nativity in Gemini. The nativity was elevated from mediocrity and became authoritative and commanding- For, the nativity being diurnal, I found the Sun to be in the trigon of the Moon, the Moon and her companions Aphrodite and Ares upon the pivot points, the Lot of Fortune and the Exaltation to be in Gemini in decline (whence his first years were mediocre), the lord3 to occupy the Good Spirit.

Let me know your thoughts.

Nina

ninotchka7 wrote:Gabe -

I think you are remembering incorrectly. If you check out Book 2, Chapter 22, Valens gives lots of example charts, where he goes through the exact procedure I describe above, using three lords.

Here is an example, verbatim:

Another (Neugebauer: 10 A.M. May 18, 95 C.E.). The Sun, Hermes in Taurus; the Moon in Aries; Kronos, Ares, Aphrodite, the Horoskopos in Cancer; Zeus in Capricorn; the Lot of Fortune and the Exaltation of the Nativity in Gemini. The nativity was elevated from mediocrity and became authoritative and commanding- For, the nativity being diurnal, I found the Sun to be in the trigon of the Moon, the Moon and her companions Aphrodite and Ares upon the pivot points, the Lot of Fortune and the Exaltation to be in Gemini in decline (whence his first years were mediocre), the lord3 to occupy the Good Spirit.

Let me know your thoughts.

Nina

That actually sounds like a determination of the eminence of the native. By that point of the second book, he's just throwing a very brief demonstration of all the various judgments that he had mentioned throughout the rest of the book (things like how the Lot of Fortune and its lord are placed, the trigons, etc.). For more specific info on the trigons, look to chapter 2 in that book.

Thanks for your answers, everyone, please keep them coming. I am not any kind of Hellenistic expert, but I know this is the forum where one can find them

Gabe - you may be right, but recall that my initial post specifically deals with the question of eminence of the native. If you have time, I would be very interested to see the method you mention applied to Stewart's chart.

Gerson - what you say makes sense, and I did not take doryphory into account in the initial post. My two reservations are that Jupiter is in the "evil place" - the 8H - and in detriment.

The question still remains for me; Jupiter is clearly not as well positioned as the Sun, and yet Stewart's second third of life was more illustrious than the first third.

In Gemini, in 8H, in Venus terms. In sect, and oriental. Square Venus in Virgo in 11H, sextile Sun in Leo in 10H, sextile Mars in Aries in 6H. Now, by Valens? method, age 30-60 should not be as illustrious a period in Stewart?s life, as it is governed by a benefic in the 8th house:

Jupiter does rule Fortuna by domicile, though I believe it is actually Venus which saves the day for her, financially. That is a different discussion, but the point is that it cannot be Jupiter that drives Stewart?s wealth and success.

And yet, it was precisely the period from 30-60 that was very successful for Stewart, who came out with several bestselling entertaining/food books in the early 80s, and her career and wealth took off from there. It was certainly superior to the first third of her life.

While it's true that Jupiter in Gemini in the 8th would not be considered a great placement as it cannot "get out" and do Jupiter stuff, there is a loophole. Jupiter, or any other planet, can "get out" of the 6th, 8th, or 12th if it is in aspect to a dispositor or in mutual reception with same. Jupiter in Gemini is in a mixed mutual reception with Mercury in Cancer. As you noted she wrote (Mercury) and published (Jupiter) several bestselling entertaining (Jupiter)/food books which, after all are about homemaking (Cancer). Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of the 9th house and the domicile ruler of the 2nd house of wealth which holds the Moon, domicile ruler of the 9th house of publications. Couple all that with the Sun, Lord MC in Leo trine Mars in Aries, Lord ASC, and this looks like a powerful second third of life built on the first third ruled by the Sun.

What I find interesting is Saturn in Taurus near Algol. I can't help it, but every time I see Saturn in Taurus I think of Lilly's definition of severe, sullen, and strict. Saturn is disposited by Venus, Lady of the 12th which is the sign of Saturn's exaltation. There are few places more severe, sullen, and strict, than prison.

Tom

Tom -

That makes sense. Obviously, Jupiter must have something else going for it than just Gemini and 8H to give Stewart the success it did in the second third.

There are a couple of things you mentioned that I'd like to unpack further, if you don't mind, because there is a lot there.

Jupiter, or any other planet, can "get out" of the 6th, 8th, or 12th if it is in aspect to a dispositor or in mutual reception with same.

Do we know what the traditional source is for this? I know John Frawley uses this method, and to great effect, but I have always wondered just where it came from.

The second thing that I find interesting is that there is no aspect between Jupiter and Mercury, as they are in adjacent signs. Can we still consider that a reception? Again, I know John would say yes, but as I understand it, the earlier authors would not. Feel free to set me straight on this.

I need to reread my authorities on the nitty-gritty of reception in these scenarios. Any source quotes are more than welcome.

Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of the 9th house and the domicile ruler of the 2nd house of wealth which holds the Moon, domicile ruler of the 9th house of publications.

All true, but Jupiter is not very strong, regardless of its rulerships. Is Mercury strong enough on its own to give Stewart the wealth/fame she got? It is just a 9H planet, after all.

And regarding Saturn - note that her marriage ended in divorce, she's been dating Microsoftie Charles Simonyi for the last 15 years, and he just married someone else. Saturn in Taurus on the 7th cannot be good for relationships.

Nina

Hi Nina and friends.
Maybe sect conditions play more important role on questions concerning triplicity rulers,in this case.If we look the charts used for illustration on the antology book II,we can note that Valens did not mention anything about essential dignity of the planets.Moreover,detriment was not used as a essential debility on helenistic times(and in vedic astrology also),only depression or fall was considered.
All the best
Gerson

Gerson -

Indeed. But it's still in the 8H!

Nina

Quote:
Jupiter, or any other planet, can "get out" of the 6th, 8th, or 12th if it is in aspect to a dispositor or in mutual reception with same.


Do we know what the traditional source is for this? I know John Frawley uses this method, and to great effect, but I have always wondered just where it came from.

I've seen a reference to it, but I can't recall where and looking it up at the moment is not in the schedule. John encourages his natal students to become familiar with Al Khayyat, who is sadly neglected on Skyscript and elsewhere. It have come from there or from Ibn Ezra. I've heard Robert Hand make the same claim without attribution

The second thing that I find interesting is that there is no aspect between Jupiter and Mercury, as they are in adjacent signs. Can we still consider that a reception?

I know all about the arguments that there must be aspect in order for there to be reception, but I think there is an exception for mutual reception, and even if there isn't an aspect and the authorities say there should be, there is still dispositorship. I don't think Morin requires aspect in order for there to be reception. Frankly, I think there is a lot of needless hairsplitting on this issue. I use them aspect or not.

Is Mercury strong enough on its own to give Stewart the wealth/fame she got? It is just a 9H planet, after all.

Just? The 9th trines the ASC after all. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Mercury is working with Jupiter, the natural ruler of fame. Stewart's Lord MC is in domicile and trine to Lord ASC also in Domicile. Although I haven't worked it out I think, from memory, her chart is highly choleric. She is going to succeed.

Robert Corre has lectured extensively on this chart and I might have notes on it somewhere. What I recal is this is a driven woman and she'll make the most of her Mercury.

Tom