Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hello to all,

Colours in Mesopotamian astrology
Author: Lorenzo Verderame
language: Italian

This a very interesting article about astrological interpretations of colours of different astronomical phenomenons or celestial objects.

http://www.orientalisti.net/verderame_1.pdf

Also another interesting article:
Due testi astrologici da Sultantepe; Two astrological texts from Sultantepe
http://www.orientalisti.net/verderame_2.pdf

Hello Sasha,

That sounds extremely interesting. If its not too time consuming for you might you be able to share some of the major conclusions of the paper regarding the Babylonian approach to colours in astrology? I am sure many skyscript readers would be most interested in this paper but like myself cannot read Italian.

I am not aware of any papers/books in English dicussing this fascinating area specifically. Does anyone else know of any?

Mark

MarkC wrote:Hello Sasha,

That sounds extremely interesting. If its not too time consuming for you might you be able to share some of the major conclusions of the paper regarding the Babylonian approach to colours in astrology? I am sure many skyscript readers would be most interested in this paper but like myself cannot read Italian.

I am not aware of any papers/books in English dicussing this fascinating area specifically. Does anyone else know of any?

Mark

Where does Sasha come from? From Italy? Or from a student of Italian language from another country? I'm curious...

In every case I will try with the first one.

The author says that the main study about colours was made by Landsberger in 1967 but he was more interested in philology.
There are four main colours: white, black, red and yellow/green: the author is interested in highlight some correspondences between colours and prediction. Then there are other words in these text, one is like brilliant, the other is orange, implying something connected with eclipses.

How these colours influence the presage? It seems that light gives emphasis to good and evil, and on the other hand dark turns the result in the opposite.

But colours have not a positive or negative influence, just the yellow/green is always with negative events.

And we are at the end of pdf.

But I add, this does not make you think of greenish/yellowish comet in Plinius and Ephaestio?
Surely in fact colours of comets were older than Plinius....

Margherita

Hello Margherita,

Sasha hails from Bucharest, Romania, according to her profile here but I am sure she can tell us herself!

I suppose as Romanian is a Latin derived language that must give it a sympathy with Italian.

How these colours influence the presage? It seems that light gives emphasis to good and evil, and on the other hand dark turns the result in the opposite.

Yes. I have seen one Babylonian astral omen where the 'dark star' (Saturn) represents a particularly malefic portent entering the 'bright' constellation of Leo. This may provide a pre-hellenistic basis for the dignities and Saturn's malefic influence in the constellations of the luminaries ( Leo & Cancer).

But I add, this does not make you think of greenish/yellowish comet in Plinius and Ephaestio? Surely in fact colours of comets were older than Plinius....

Interesting although I would like to understand more of the text before expressing any opinion. I know you believe such colour references may have a very early hellenistic origin but the possibility of a direct transmission back to Mespotamia is even more radical and fascinating.

MarkC wrote: Interesting although I would like to understand more of the text before expressing any opinion.

Well the text does not talk about comets but surely the fact that the yellow/green colour is the only negative colour makes me think a little...

I know you believe such colour references may have a very early hellenistic origin but the possibility of a direct transmission back to Mespotamia is even more radical and fascinating.

I believe that there is an early literature about comets because I have a list of authors.
I don't know what is a "direct transmission" but I found a quote from Pliny for you....On the other hand, Epigenes, a writer of very great authority, informs us that the Babylonians have a series of observations on the stars, for a period of seven hundred and twenty thousand years, inscribed on baked bricks
And Hypparchos collected his data from Babylonian sources too. So maybe it was not a direct transmission, but Greeks and Latin something should know about pre-hellenistic astrology,
margherita

Hello Margherita,

Well the text does not talk about comets

I am not just into comets you know I am studying various aspects of Mesopotamian astrology right now so this topic really interests me.

And Hypparchos collected his data from Babylonian sources too. So maybe it was not a direct transmission, but Greeks and Latin something should know about pre-hellenistic astrology,

Yes thats true about Hipparchus. Do you have an Italian translation of his commentary on Aratus? We are still awaiting one in English. I believe there is a German translation but that is over 100 years old.

There are undoubtably several borrowings of techniques from Mesopotamian astrology in Hellenistic astrology. For example the signs, exaltations, dodekatamoiria, and the lunar nodes. It doesn't seem impossible that some colour associations could have been translated from late Mesopotamian astrology too.

MarkC wrote: Do you have an Italian translation of his commentary on Aratus? We are still awaiting one in English. I believe there is a German translation but that is over 100 years old.

We don't have any translation of Firmicus, who wrote in Latin, how we could have of Hipparchus?

In every case I'm sure that the German one is very good. It is made inside University and German philologists are famous. I'm very envious of people who can read it

Margherita

We don't have any translation of Firmicus, who wrote in Latin, how we could have of Hipparchus?

You have my sympathy! Quite ironic considering he was Sicilian.

In every case I'm sure that the German one is very good. It is made inside University and German philologists are famous. I'm very envious of people who can read it

Yes German speaking scholarship has always had a first rate reputation. The tradition still lives on in people like Hermann Hunger, the Austrian expert on Babylonian astrology. For anyone able to read German the translation of the Hipparchus commentary on Aratus is by by K. Manitius , In Arati et Eudoxi phaenomena commentariorium, (Leipzig, 1894).

For the English speakers I do have some good news. Apparently, Roger T. Macfarlane and Paul S. Mills at Brigham Young University in the USA are working on the first English translation of Hipparchus's, Commentary on the Phenomena of Aratus and Eudoxus. Macfarlane is a classicist while Mills is a professor of Physics and Astronomy. I find it amazing this has never been translated before as its just about the only complete text left by Hipparchus.

I dont know if everyone has seen the link I gave elsewhere to the free video presentations from the recent International Astronomical Union conference.

The noted expert on Mesopotamian astronomy-astrology Hermann Hunger gave an interesting overview in his presentation.

Here is the link:

http://canalc2.u-strasbg.fr/video.asp?idvideo=8353

Sorry for the delay. I was out of town far away from the ?civilized? world

Or from a student of Italian language from another country?

Yes, I think you are right. A student of Italian language and also a member of Cielo e Terra

Sasha hails from Bucharest, Romania, according to her profile here but I am sure she can tell us herself!

Yes, but I am a ?he? not a ?she?

I suppose as Romanian is a Latin derived language that must give it a sympathy with Italian.

Exactly. That?s the case with French (I learned French at school), and Spanish (beginner).

In the case of Italian, I only read (in some cases with a little help from the dictionary). I am quite a beginner when it comes to write or to speak.

Hello Sasha,

My sincere apology on the gender mix up, I am going to have to wipe that female image I had of you in my mind from the memory banks.

Sorry

Mark

sasha_i wrote:
Yes, I think you are right. A student of Italian language and also a member of Cielo e Terra

You are a member of CieloeTerra? Happy to hear this.
You will come in Milan to hear Giuseppe Bezza about Centiloquium in May?
It seems that he does not lecture since longtime, it's an opportunity.
I guess Milan is far from Romania, still it is not near for me too.
Anyway I will go with new friends I met at Deborah lecture, Patrizia Nava - one of Frawley students and Lucia Bellizia of Apotelesma.

In every case I will take pictures and I will write a report for people who live abroad.

Margherita