Skyscript Astrology Forum

I know many of you have the same trouble with this method as it's been heavily debated by current Horary artists, but when a planet will pass into the next sign before the fast moving planet perfects is it according to Lilly VOC since as Lilly points out if within orb it is Not VOC.

I.E. I just did a horary yesterday where the Moon(Cancer) would sextile Mercury(lord of the matter) within 3 degrees. But here was Mercury ruler of the 2nd(the matter) at 29 degrees and 56 minutes of Taurus going into Gemini before the aspect could perfect.

I have only one other horary about this Lilly method and as of now I'm not certain of the interpretation.

And Yes, I'm totally aware that Bonatus said the Moon may work in Can, Tau, Sag, and Pis, and Lilly used it as well. But that keyword is may according to Bonatus!

Does anyone have any experience with this controversial Lilly technique that I'm sure sends shivers down our VOC mindsets of interpretations?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Hello Clinton,

Does anyone have any experience with this controversial Lilly technique that I'm sure sends shivers down our VOC mindsets of interpretations?

Actually, its not explicitly a 'Lilly's technique' as you suggest. In his book 'The Void of Course Moon' Maurice McCann demonstrates how every astrologer in that period in England did not regard a Moon which applies across the sign boundary as VOC.

More fundamentally, there are many traditional references that could be used to support this view. Take a look at this article by Deborah Houlding:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/voc.html

For example:

It is 'void of course' if a planet separates from application with a planet in conjunction or aspect, and does not apply to a planet as long as it is in its sign. Abu 'Mashar - The Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology Chap. 3, v21

Note the key point is about the planet forming an applying aspect before it leaves the sign to avoid being VOC. There is no reference to it having to perfect its aspect before leaving sign here.

Lilly didn't operate in a historical vacuum. He was following a technique well established before him. For example, look at the defintion of VOC given in Deb's article by Johannes Sch?ner (15th cent.) or Claude Dariot ( 16th cent)

The other point is that this does not just apply to the Moon. The same approach is used with all planets by those working with the out-of-sign approach.

However, its true horary practitioners disagree on this. Some like John Frawley generally only consider a planet that perfect an aspect before leaving sign (he will consider out-of-sign aspects within a 3 degree orb I believe). Other leading horary practitioners such as Deborah Houlding , and Sue Ward apply the out-of-sign approach just as Lilly and others did. These astrologers will consider aspects with planets that perfect across the sign boundary as long as an applying aspect is formed beforehand in sign.

Like so so many other aspects of the astrological art there is no black and white answer. You will have to put the idea to the test and see what works for you. Just like choice of zodiac, house system, aspect method or use of fixed stars or antiscia only you can ultimately decide.

It needs to be said though that supporters of the out-of-sign aspect approach do not see applying aspects working as smoothly or straightforwardly this way as when aspects perfect in-sign. Deborah Houlding always emphasizes there is some kind of change of condition or environment surrounding the question that alters the way the perfection is achieved across the sign boundary. There is a sense quite literally of 'crossing the rubicon'. For example in a lost property question an out-of-sign aspect might quite literally represent a wall separating the object from its seeker.

I can give you an example of this. I had a property question about whether a friend would sell their property and if so would they achieve it in 6 weeks?

The basic significators were not applying. Indeed the querents significator conjoined Saturn first. However, the Moon was applying in a trine across the sign boundary to the Sun ( significator of house buyer). What could this mean? I will not go into the whole horary but I advised the price was too high and initial buyer would pull out or at least not commit to a firm offer. However, after a delay and a more realistic packaging of the property it would sell shortly after the period sought by the seller. This indeed is what happened.

In the end , the price had to be lowered and a sale went ahead after this. It seems to me the out-sign dimension perfecctly described the dynamics of this question in a way a straightforward whole sign approach would have failed to do.

(I should mention that this question came up during the housing boom before house prices became deflated everywhere. Clearly telling a seller to lower their price these days would not require a horary chart!)

Thats typical of what an out of sign applying aspect can mean. Its not a straightforward no as the whole -sign approach might imply. However, its not a straightforward yes either. Something had to change in the condition surrounding the question for the perfection showing across the sign boundary to be achieved.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

For the record either Bonatus's rule of a VOC Moon in Cancer may or can work. Or as you stated Sue Ward, Deborah Holding, Dariot, and Mark's stance upon the out of sign yet within orb has held true.

For the matter came to a positive conclusion and with Lilly's five degree rule where the cusp of the 2nd was within 4 degrres appying to Saturn it showed the delay and apprehension.

Mark I have to share with you a simular story as you have shared upon this VOC planet applying as the Lord of the matter leaves it's sign. a few years ago I asked about a relationship(7th), and the purpose was for a potential marriage. Well as you know the 7th is also conselors with particular emphasis upon us horary astrologers; and she is always questioning me. She and I have became great freinds and talk nearly everyday; this has gone on for years. She married another as I felt I was wrong for her at that time in her life.

But we don't rule out if her older husband one day dies we just might re-connect. We both felt this unreal attraction and have since came to understand we were married before in many lifetimes yet incarcerated in a sense from each other in this one.

So as you and the other horary authoritys have stated this being true, one day in this life we just may get it together again as husband and wife.

Clinton Garrett Soule

For the record either Bonatus's rule of a VOC Moon in Cancer may or can work. Or as you stated Sue Ward, Deborah Holding, Dariot, and Mark's stance upon the out of sign yet within orb has held true.

Hi Clinton,

I dont really see a contradiction here as these two issues are quite different things. Its nothing to do with whether you use a whole sign or out-of-sign approach. Lilly, following Bonatti, makes the same point about VOC Moon being less in effect by position in these signs. Personally, I dont see it as this straightoforward. For example, Moon in Sagittarius is disposited by Jupiter the greater benefic. However, if Jupiter itself is weak by essential dignity and/or accidental dignity in the actual chart I would not expect this to overcome the condition of a true VOC Moon.

For the matter came to a positive conclusion and with Lilly's five degree rule where the cusp of the 2nd was within 4 degrres appying to Saturn it showed the delay and apprehension

Sorry to sound so pedantic but its not Lilly's five degree rule. The technique dates back to Claudius Ptolemy in his book the Tetrabiblos in the 2nd century AD. Its an approach used by the majority of the medieval and early modern astrologers. We tend to attribute a lot of ideas to Lilly because he was the first author to describe the traditional technique in English. He is therefore more accessible to modern English speaking astrologers as the last great practitioner of horary in the 17th century before astrology went into a steep decline. However, although Lilly was a highly gifted and experienced practitoner his astrological ideas were nearly always taken from earlier Arab, Latin or hellenistic astrology.

So as you and the other horary authoritys have stated this being true, one day in this life we just may get it together again as husband and wife.

Regarding Sue Ward it is only fair to mention that is was her research that first discovered that Lilly was using a perfection across the sign boundary technique. Before that she and other horary authorities like Olivia Barclay had assumed Lilly was using a strict whole sign approach. This discovery was quite a shock to the horary community at the time. I remember Deb Houlding telling me she was initially resistant to the idea until she went through the chart examples in Christian Astrology. That is one of the great things about Lilly. Unlike most traditional sources he actually demonstrates his astrology with chart examples.

Regarding you specific chart example its obviously impossible to comment on this chart in this way. As you know there are many considerations that factor into a horary chart so one element in isolation doen't provide sufficient material to reach a judgement on this. Rather than letting the out-sign approach hang or fall on this one chart I suggest you repeatedly put it to the test in your horary charts.

MarkC wrote:
Regarding Sue Ward it is only fair to mention that is was her research that first discovered that Lilly was using a perfection across the sign boundary technique. Before that she and other horary authorities like Olivia Barclay had assumed Lilly was using a strict whole sign approach. This discovery was quite a shock to the horary community at the time. I remember Deb Houlding telling me she was initially resistant to the idea until she went through the chart examples in Christian Astrology. horary charts.

Hi Mark and Clinton,

when you read Lilli's definition of void of couse, its nerarly unbelevable, that this misunderst?nding could last so long. (Me being no exception of that). Lilly, C.A., page 112:
"A Planet is voyd of course, when he is seperated from a Planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in that Signe, apply to any other: This is most usually in the Moon; in judgements doe you carefully observe whether she be voyd of course yea or no; you shall seldome see a businesse goe handsomely forward when she is so."

Application is here obviously not restricted (but this fact was and is obviously ignored) by the demand of perfection, as with Ibn Ezra for example, The Beginning of Wisdom, Translated and Annoted by Meira B. Epstein, page 120:
"Solitary Motion (Void of Course) is when a planet separates from another, whether in conjunction by 15 degrees, or in aspect by 6 [degrees], and does not join another planet as long as it is in that same sign, or no planet beholds it by a complete aspect, whichever it may be."

Do you know, when Sue Ward developed the new sight on VOC with Lilly?

Interesting, that your both experience seem to contradict that of Lilly as to the not void of course configuration - him stating difficulties only by a void of course constellation. Do you have examples for this too?

Johannes

Hi Johannes

The details are in footnote 23 of the article about this at

http://skyscript.co.uk/moon2.html#23

(See the text that the footnote links to, too).

Thank you, Deb. I don't stop to call your SKYSCRIPT fantastic!

Johannes

Johannes,

As an example I asked a horary the other day while the Lord of the matter, Mercury was at 29 degrees and 56 minutes and the Moon was sextiling the lord in around 4 degrees before it perfected. It couldn't possibly perfect untill Mercury was in the next sign; but it came thru very positive yet delayed as Saturn cjt the house of the matter.

I just recently was helping someone on another horary about a job(10th house) where the Moon and lord of the ascendant were in very debilitated condition.

The Lord of the matter was Venus in Aries and applying to a cjt to Mars also in Aries. But the cjt would not perfect until both were later in Taurus(about the 3rd week of June)

Forum I must admit this one really baffles me as they are in orb yet won't join til in the next sign.

Is Lilly stating that the matter will be positive as they are in orb despite both will pass into Taurus before they perfect?

Or is the cjt taking place in the next sign telling us that the matter is negative, not going to happen?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Clinton Soule wrote:
I just recently was helping someone on another horary about a job(10th house) where the Moon and lord of the ascendant were in very debilitated condition.

The Lord of the matter was Venus in Aries and applying to a cjt to Mars also in Aries. But the cjt would not perfect until both were later in Taurus(about the 3rd week of June)

Forum I must admit this one really baffles me as they are in orb yet won't join til in the next sign.

Is Lilly stating that the matter will be positive as they are in orb despite both will pass into Taurus before they perfect?

Or is the cjt taking place in the next sign telling us that the matter is negative, not going to happen?

Hi Clinton,

This conjunction between Venus and Mars baffled me too until I noticed that this conjunction is frustrated by Jupiter. Both Venus and Mars will sextile Jupiter before the conjunction will perfect.

Hope this helps.

Erna

Erna,

This conjunction between Venus and Mars baffled me too until I noticed that this conjunction is frustrated by Jupiter. Both Venus and Mars will sextile Jupiter before the conjunction will perfect.

In other words, Erna, from your understanding the matter would have come to a positive conclusion if the Frustration from the sextile of Jupiter had Not been there.

As I understand from Lilly Generally a Frustration aspect denotes a negative outcome; but it's Not always the case.

Clinton Garrett Soule

It looks as though Mars evades Venus but Jupiter is there to collect their light.

AquaStella wrote:It looks as though Mars evades Venus but Jupiter is there to collect their light.

Yes, you are right if it's a night chart, then Jupiter does collect their light. If, however, it is a day chart Jupiter does not collect their light as Venus and Mars do not receive Jupiter. This is how I understand it at least. Lilly says on p. 126 in CA:

"Matters are also brought to perfection, when as the two principall Significators doe not behold one another, but both cast their severall Aspects to a more weighty Planet then themselves, and they both receive him in some of their essential dignities; then shall that Planet who thus collects both their Lights, bring the thing demanded to perfection:..."

Clinton,

IF Jupiter frustrates the conjunction, it certainly doesn't have to be a negative thing at all. It depends on the question and what Jupiter signifies. By the way, was your chart a daychart or a night chart? Did Jupiter frustrate, or did it collect the lights of Venus and Mars?

Erna