Skyscript Astrology Forum

All -

Can someone help me track down the source of this concept, and find more information? I read about it somewhere (or someone emailed me about it), and I cannot remember where.

The idea is that to determine how a firdar ruler (and perhaps subruler) will manifest is to look at the Solar Return for the year that the ruler first becomes active. So if your Saturn period began in 1995, you would look at the condition of Saturn in the 1995 Solar Return horoscope to get a sense of how it would manifest.

Thanks!
Nina

Hello Nina,

Steven, our moderator, is supposed to post something about techniques linked to the Solar Returns (I asked about, in the thread about Martin Gansten's on Primaries), which also suppose references to planetary periods, such as Fridars, probably Decennials, for the radix, primary directions using divisors (bound where a directed significator is) and co-divisor (the last direction of a significator which is active until the next), and other techniques, such planetary period for the Solar returns (similar to the Decennials), I presume... So, stay with us

Thanks, Francois!

If I had to bet, I would say that I read about it in one of Steven's posts, but I could not be sure. I will keep my eyes peeled, and in the meantime, if anyone else knows the source, I hope they share.

Nina

Hello Nina and others,

As you are well aware, there exists many timelord (chronocrator) systems in Hellenistic astrology i.e. profection, decennials, quarters of the moon, lunar monomoiria, zodiacal aphesis, etc. It is my understanding that any one of these timelord techniques can be used with:

1. the natal chart to determine the areas of life affected during the lordship of these timelords and

2. with solar return and transits to pinpoint the timing more precisely.

Some of the timelord techniques can be divided into major (covering span of years), minor, sub-minor, sub-sub minor etc. For example, the profection and zodiacal aphesis methods can give us the year lord, month lord, day lord (and some claim even hourly lord). Note that I use the term daily, hourly etc. loosely because sometimes a day lord can cover 2 and a half days, and so on and so forth. For a major lord that covers span of more than one year, the position of transiting Saturn must also be analyzed. For a year lord, Jupiter should also be carefully analyzed for the year prediction as well as the Solar Return chart (because nataurally this covers a year). Transiting Mars, Sun, Venus and Mercury must be observed with the monthly lord. Lastly, the day lord should be analyzed with transiting moon.

Firdaria is not one of the Hellenistic timelord techniques. It is probably persian but it is the simplest there is! You need to carry only 2 tables (one for diurnal and one for nocturnal births) and if the native has a natal chart (or if you plot for them), you're in the astrological prediction business.

The big question then is, "Which timelord is to be used?". Traditionally speaking, once the timelord procedure has been selected we can then call upon our solar return and transits to be more precise. Some astrologers suggest using all of the timelord techniques each with different objectives covering different areas of life. I find this very confusing as you will end up having almost all planets the timelord of something and everything. This is the same objection I have for astrologers who say that marriage is governed by trip rulers of Venus, lord of 7th house, first trip lord of 7th house and lots of marriage (and there are lots of lots of marriages!). Even if we remove Venus (as being the universal ruler) we still end up with more than a couple significators to choose from!

My feeling (and this is only my feeling) is that the ancients must have "designed" or discovered that different timelord schemes are to be used for different natives (not all timelords are to be used for one native covering different areas of life). I suggest that planet based natives (those who answer strongly to either luminaries) should use planet based timelord techniques (e.g. decennials for solar influenced natives, quarters of the moon for lunar influenced natives or even firdaria). Natives who strongly answer to ascendant should probably use profection (from ascendant of course!) or even circumambulation (also from ascendant). Natives who are strongly lot based should then give more emphasis to Zodiacal Releasings.

The timelord based on Firdaria depends only on where the sun was at the time of birth. If it was above the horizon (diurnal chart) then you start with sun and if it was below the horizon (nocturnal chart), you start with moon. This suggests that Firdaria as timelord should be used with natives who are strongly solar or lunar.

The idea is that to determine how a firdar ruler (and perhaps subruler) will manifest is to look at the Solar Return for the year that the ruler first becomes active. So if your Saturn period began in 1995, you would look at the condition of Saturn in the 1995 Solar Return horoscope to get a sense of how it would manifest.

Let us assume that the major period of Satrun begins in 1995. It should then end in 2016. The condition of Saturn in 1995 Solar Return when you are under Saturn Period is definitely important but I think it should be limited only for that year. I would look into both the major and minor firdaria in the Solar return chart to see their effects for the year. But 3 years later the minor firdaria will be different (though the major firdaria is still Saturn). I would then look into Saturn (the major Fridaria) and the minor firdaria planet in the corresponding Solar Return chart for yearly predictions. Saturn is the timelord for 11 years in the firdaria system. The general conditions of Saturn in the natal chart tell us the conditions of the 11 year period (whether generally good or bad). The conditions of Saturn in the Solar Return tell us the yearly conditions - more specific.

The timelord system tells us which planets to emphasize (for whatever period). Looking into these emphasized planets (the timelords) in the solar return chart limits the emphasized planet as timelord for one year. If the timelord is still active the following year, we still look into this timelord but we look into the new solar return chart.

Having said these, let me briefly outline what other professionals have said on Firdaria:

When I was first exposed to firdaria, I was taught to use the approach outlined by Robert Hand (I don't if he still hold this view). He likened the major and minor periods to Matter and Form (Aristotelian definition of Matter and Form). So, if you are under Mars/Venus fridaria (Mars = Major and Venus = Minor), the matter is Mars but the form is Venus. The whole seven years are governed by Mars - fire, cutting, discord, quick release, etc. but what does Mars cut/burn/release/...? The areas governed by Venus (as the form). Another way of looking at this is to look where Mars is in the natal chart. The Matter (major firdaria planet) is the house location of where Mars is. If Mars is in the 3rd house, then matters governing the third will be the Matter for Mars/Venus firdaria. The houses that Venus rule (by domicile and exaltation) are the Form for Mars/Venus Firdaria. Using this concept, the period of Mars/Venus firdaria will be totally different from Venus/Mars firdaria.

Another concept that I have seen is the one presented by Jonathan Pearl who uses the major and minor firdaria planets as new derived ascendant and delineate the natal chart accordingly. Assume that you are in Mars/Venus Firdaria. Take the sign where Mars is and use this sign as ?new? ascendant for the next 7 years (Mars major firdaria). Then take the sign where Venus is and use this as the ?new? ascendant for the next one year (any minor planet period in Mars firdaria major period is given one year).

Hi, Nina

I was wondering if was I who told you that, but I looked on my email and didn?t found anything.

Anyway I wrote a little piece in
http://episthemologie.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/firdar/

I think that to clearly use the firdar, one should concentrate in the accidental significations, with a little touch of the natural ones.

So, if you are in the firdaria of the ruler of the 5th, and a naturally fertile planet is sub-ruler, it is a good bet to try to have children at this time.

It was Steven who said somewhere to use Firdar with solar return, and I have used it.

A good technique is when a ruler is taking rulership of the times, to cast the SR of that year, his significations and his esse.

But in a regular SR I also look to the sub ruler in this revolution and at his state.

One thing that is usually interesting is to look to aspects of the planets to the sub-ruler of firdar.

Y

Astrojin, Yuzuru, and Steven -

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies.

I have been experimenting with the method I discussed in a handful of charts, and these early results have been quite promising. To give you a somewhat dramatic example, one individual made a fortune during the Saturn firdar. In the Solar Return for the first year of the Saturn sequence, Saturn in SR 5H was square Jupiter (the main natal financial significator), which was in the SR 2H in its domicile. They are also square in the natal chart. The subsequent Solar Returns during that firdar were not particularly indicative with respect to Saturn.

In the Jupiter firdar, the native again made money, but considerably less than in the Saturn firdar. In the solar return beginning the Jupiter firdar, their positions were swapped: Jupiter was in the SR 5H square Saturn in SR 2H. This time, both Saturn and Jupiter were conjunct the other's natal position. I don't yet have a final verdict on this, since that person's Jupiter firdar is still ongoing; it could be that the triggering of the natal positions is enough to make the money happen.

Astrojin - your thought about methods being tied to certain types of charts is very interesting. I don't claim to operate at this level of subtlety, but your post is an excellent reminder that while astrology is universal, perhaps historically, specific methods were local in a way we couldn't fathom today. Only today, thanks to technology, these are being brought together and studied comparatively in a way that would have been difficult 1000 years ago. The modern age has a marked tendency to flatten and simplify where previously there was abundant diversity - note that we are all writing in one language on this forum. It is worthwhile keeping all these methods at hand, recognizing the individuality of each person and their chart.

Yuzuru - I had checked all my emails from you before I posted, but didn't see anything, either. It was actually your article on firdaria that made me think of this question, and thanks for confirming that Steven (or Abu Ma'shar) is the real source. The example I gave above seems to confirm about the major firdar ruler (and subruler as you say, which I haven't yet examined) that the aspects to it in the SR are important.

Steven - if you can find the cite at some point, I'd appreciate it.

I have OSR on order from Hindsight, but the 1st treatise is momentarily locked to non-Latin types like myself. Do you mean that Treatise 1 says we would look at the time ruler for each year that the time ruler is in power? That is interesting, since I haven't had much success with that thus far. If you or anyone has tried this, I'd be interested to know the results.

Best wishes,
Nina

I work with profections and solar returns following the basic guidelines found in Late Classical Astrology. (1)

Here's an excerpt explaining the procedure once the profected zoidion/image is found:

"First, how this zoidion and its lord are in the nativity, namely if it was in the same zoidion, that is, in its own house; but even if not in the same one, [if] it figured it by triangle, square, hexagon, or diameter. And whether, under these circumstances, the zoidion was hit by benefic stars or even the lord of the zoidion itself, or completely the opposite: the star was neither in its own zoidion in the construction, but was actually averse, nor did a benefic [make a] figure [to] the zoidion or its lord, but on the contrary, a malefic figured it.

Second, examine in the same way also in the natal hour of that year how that zoidion and its lord are?that is to say? the lords of that year, whether it is actually in the same zoidion or, even if it isn't actually [there], it hits them by triangle, square, hexagon, or diameter, and also benefic stars hit it by figure or are in it; or these are all opposite, that is, both the lord of the zoidion and of the year is averse from the zoidion and, on the contrary, malefics figure it or are actually in it.'' (2)

I also check the transits of Jupiter and Saturn and pay close attention to Mars' if it should retrograde.


james



(1) Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus with the Scholia from Later Commentators, translated by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum. Arhat Editions
(2) p.131