Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrological authorities such as Bonati or Lilly frequently tell us about checking the correspondence between a horary chart and the planetary hour ruler.

Just as a recap these planetary hours are based on an ancient astrological system, the Chaldean order of the planets. This is the sequence: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, and Moon, then repeating endlessly Saturn, Jupiter, etc.

The Chaldean order indicates the relative orbital velocity of the planets and from a traditional geocentric perspective the Chaldean order also shows the arrangement of the planetary spheres.

Each planetary hour of the planetary day is ruled by a different planet. The planet that rules the first hour of the day is also the ruler of the whole day and gives the day its name. Thus the first hour of Sunday is ruled by the Sun, the first hour of Monday is ruled by the Moon and so on.

However, planetary hours are not the same as the sixty-minute hours that we use for normal time-keeping. The day is split into two periods, daytime and nighttime. Sunrise to sunset is considered daytime. Sunset to sunrise of the next day is nighttime. Then these two periods are each divided into twelve equal length hours, which are the planetary hours. The planetary hours of the day and the planetary hours of the night will be of different lengths except on the Equinoxes, when light and darkness are balanced.

I haven't noticed much reference to them in natal astrology. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

There do seem to be a lot of references in renaissance texts dealing with astrological magic but what about natal astrology?

The one source I do recall seeing something that could constitute such a use of planetary hour rulers was by the 12th century astrologer Ibn Ezra.

That is not too surprising as he is generally regarded as the first explicit source to use the Placidus house system. Placidus houses link in directly to the planetary hours.

I would appreciate feedback on the following questions.

1 What is the earliest astrological text people can identify citing the planetary hours?

2 Do any of you have any experience of using planetary hours in natal analysis? It rather intrigues me as I have seen some interesting connections in the charts I have examined.

Thanks

Mark

Hello MarkC,

Astrological authorities such as Bonati or Lilly frequently tell us about checking the correspondence between a horary chart and the planetary hour ruler.

Regardless of what many horary astrologers say about considerations before judgment, I still check them in my practice. I would divide the Considerations before Judgment into two:

1. Checking radicality of the querent
2. Checking radicality of the query

Checking Radicality of the Querent
William Lilly's favourite method:
Checking the agreement between the ascendant (and its Lord) and the querent?s physical appearance. He also checked that the position of scars and moles of the querent correspond with the positions of the ascendant, Lord of ascendant, 6th House cusp, Lord of 6th House cusp and the moon.
Do I do this in my practice? Most of the time, no!

In extension to this, some astrologers use the association of horary chart to the client's natal chart for radicality of the querent. Well, I do this if I have the client's natal chart.

Bonatti's method:
Lord of the Planetary Hour agreement with Lord of Ascendant (whether they are the same or of the same nature or in the same triplicity)...

Checking Radicality of the Query
This is where we see whether the query is radical i.e. is it premature, is it a little bit too late, will I (the astrologer) will have problems answering this question, etc.

Our judgment is, of course, important in using these strictures or consideration. If we know the client well and we are sure that he is genuine, then we can safely skip checking radicality of the querent.
If any of the strictures in checking radicality of the query appears, caution is due (I stll believe that we can read the chart as long as we are careful).

Having said this, there is something else that can be said about the Lord of the Hour with the Lord of Ascendant agreement. Ascendant, a specific node, is defined (for any node) as the intersection of two circles. In the case of Ascendant, the two circles are the two great circles; the horizon and the ecliptic. Hence, it is the place where the sky "meets" the earth. It is associated with beginnings (of a life of a newly born, query, event, etc.) because it is the place of the rising sun. Therefore, the Lord of Ascendant has its share of ruling the newly born, query, event, etc.

The Lord of the hour is the fixed ruler of the hour for certain place. All we need for the determination of the mapping of planetary hour rulers for the whole day and night are the times of sunrise and sunset and of course, the weekday. Now, if the fixed hour ruler of a certain place is somehow connected to the Lord of the Ascendant when a query is made, the progression and outcome of the query can then be judged with the astrological chart that has the corresponding Ascendant. What we are saying is that, the outcome of the query is predictable (read radical) i.e. the seemingly unpredictable outcome on earth is predictable via the seemingly predictable courses of the planets in the sky (astrological chart).

For a natal chart, the birth event itself is radical by definition. Hence, it does not require checking "radicality of birth". What is more important is the correct birth time (this is where rectification comes in, animodar, lunar epoch, etc.). What use is then of the planetary hour ruler?


The fastest moving point (sign related) is, of course, the ascendant sign (approximately two hours depending on latitude, season of the year bla bla). It is because of this motion that makes the planets "move" approximately 2 hours in a house. (Midheaven sign also moves quite fast but it is not as personal as Ascendant. Midheaven does not change with latitude if the longitude and time are fixed).

So, the Lord of the Ascendant also changes every 2 hours (approximately). But the Lord of the Hour changes every hour (approximately). Hence, the Lord of the Hour is more "specific" or rather more changeable. In fact, the planetary hour ruler is a better candidate to track daily changes of an event than Ascendant ruler in some cases. Therefore, it can be used as one of the personal rulers of a natal chart. The planetary hour ruler is more conspicuous than Ascendant ruler if the ascendant ruler does not aspect the Ascendant but the Lord of the hour does. So, how many main "rulers" do we have? Four. The luminaries, the ruler of the ascendant and the planetary hour ruler. I believe they should all be considered in a general delineation of a natal chart. The effects of the Lord of the Hour are more conspicuous if it is angular (or strongly posited).

It is interesting to note that (on average) using whole numbers:
The year is the "motions" of the sun throughout the 12 zodiacal signs and Jupiter in one sign . The month is the approximate motions of Moon throughout the 12 zodiacal signs, Sun in one sign and Saturn in one degree. The day is the motion of the ascendant throughout the 12 zodiacal signs, Moon in one lunar mansion and Sun in one degree.

What about the period of one hour? The planetary hour ruler then. There are seven traditional planets, hence the cycle of the planetary hours 7 "hours".

FYI, there is an old Arabic tradition that divides the day into 7 periods (instead of 12); each period is governed by a planet beginning with the ruler of the day). The same is done for the night (7 periods of the night each governed by the 7 planets). I read it in an old arabic translated book on finding lost items. Must try and search for it. Quite useful to locate lost objects.

For me, planetary hour ruler in a natal chart is best used for confirmation of the Big Three (Asc, Sun and Moon). In consultation chart however, it is very important. The Arab astrologers seem to include Planetary Hour as one of the candidate rulers of a consultation chart (see Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah)

Thanks Astrojin!

Very comprehensive and useful as always.

I suppose I have inevitably opened up a discussion on the radicality of a horary chart by default. Here is a very useful article by Deborah Houlding on the topic.

http://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf.

So, the Lord of the Ascendant also changes every 2 hours (approximately). But the Lord of the Hour changes every hour (approximately). Hence, the Lord of the Hour is more "specific" or rather more changeable. In fact, the planetary hour ruler is a better candidate to track daily changes of an event than Ascendant ruler in some cases. Therefore, it can be used as one of the personal rulers of a natal chart.

The planetary hour ruler is more conspicuous than Ascendant ruler if the ascendant ruler does not aspect the Ascendant but the Lord of the hour does. So, how many main "rulers" do we have? Four. The luminaries, the ruler of the ascendant and the planetary hour ruler. I believe they should all be considered in a general delineation of a natal chart. The effects of the Lord of the Hour are more conspicuous if it is angular (or strongly posited).

Thanks I was interested to see if anyone else considered them. Your suggestion about the planetary hour ruler reminds me of the hellenistic notion that the exaltation ruler may take over the responsibilities of ruling a sign if the domicile ruler is in aversion (inconjunct) to it by whole sign. In a case where both planets were in aversion to the ascendant or the sign lacked an exaltation ruler it would appear an even more significant consideration if it was prominent in the chart.

William Lilly's favourite method:
Checking the agreement between the ascendant (and its Lord) and the querent?s physical appearance. He also checked that the position of scars and moles of the querent correspond with the positions of the ascendant, Lord of ascendant, 6th House cusp, Lord of 6th House cusp and the moon.

Plus the term/bound ruler which I seem to recall Deb saying is very important to issues of physical description in horary. I believe she is speaking on this very topic at the UK Astrological association Conference this September.

For me, planetary hour ruler in a natal chart is best used for confirmation of the Big Three (Asc, Sun and Moon). In consultation chart however, it is very important. The Arab astrologers seem to include Planetary Hour as one of the candidate rulers of a consultation chart (see Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah)

This still leaves me wondering...what is our earliest source for this idea. The order of the planets may be 'Chaldean' but would I be right in assuming the technique is hellenistic in origin?

Thanks

Mark

MarkC wrote:1 What is the earliest astrological text people can identify citing the planetary hours?

Hi Mark,

Perhaps you might find this conversation between Deb and me of some use.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... ddd79740ed
page 3 of the thread.

The hours have some Babylonian roots.

Hi Mark,

Thanx for the comments!

This still leaves me wondering...what is our earliest source for this idea.

Yeah..., I am wondering too. Will need input from those who are more knowledgeable in astro-historical subject!

This still leaves me wondering...what is our earliest source for this idea. The order of the planets may be 'Chaldean' but would I be right in assuming the technique is hellenistic in origin?

Pre-Hellenistic for sure. The use of the temporal hours is extremely ancient and from what I understand it was linked to the planets from the start. This comment from Herodotus (written in the 5th century BC) doesn?t specifically mention the hours, but it shows that the framework of associating time with astrological qualities was in place. The hours were a part of this scheme.
Regards, Deb

The Egyptians were also the first to assign each month and each day to a particular deity, and to foretell by the date of a man?s birth, his character, his fortunes, and the day of his death ? a discovery which Greek poets have turned to account. The Egyptians too, have made more use of omens and prognostics than any other nation; they keep written records of the observed result of any unusual phenomenon, so that they come to expect a similar consequence to follow a similar occurrence in the future.

Herodotus, The Histories (5th Cent. BC), translated by Aubrey de Selincourt; (Penguin Classics, London, 1996), 132.