Skyscript Astrology Forum

[BESIEGING.] Besieging is, when any Planet is places betwixt the bodies of the two Malevolent Planets Saturn and Mars: as Saturn in 15. Aries, Mars in 10. of Aries, Venus in 13. Aries: here Venus is besieged by the two infortunes, and it represents in questions, a Man going out of Gods blessing into the warm Sun; I mean is Venus be a Significatrix that time in time in the figure. William Lilly


5th when any of them are besieged by the Infortunes, so as to separate from one and be joined to another, without perfect reception of House, Exaltation, or two of the smaller Dignities, which are Term, Triplicity and Face. GUIDO BONATUS


What they don?t mention is the strength or orb which is allowed in order for a planet to be besieged. In Lilly?s example Venus is in detriment and conjunct both planets fairly closely.

What can be said if Venus was for example at 9 Libra, with Mars at 29 Virgo and Saturn at 9 Scorpio. These planets are not conjunct. They are not in aspect, and they are not even in the same signs, though Venus is placed between the two malefics.


I am not sure really about this particular debility, nor as to its effects, it certainly is not an aspect, but perhaps can be treated in a similar way to combustion. Though once again there is no orb specified, apart from the fairly close conjunctions that Lilly gave. Can we say that a planet is not besieged if it is out of the orb of moiety of the besieging planet?

Also according to Bonatus, the besieged planet must be without essential dignity, so my example of Venus in Libra would not be besieged?

I have not heard of the idea that a besieged planet is aided by being in essential dignity. It can be helped by a trine or sextile to a benefic.

A planet can also be besieged by being in square or opposition to the malefics so I would say that whatever orbs you use for aspects apply here.

Matt

matt23z wrote:A planet can also be besieged by being in square or opposition to the malefics so I would say that whatever orbs you use for aspects apply here.Matt

But this is not consistent with the definition of Lilly because between the rays is not the same as "betwixt the bodies" as Lilly defines in the quotoation given by Night Sky:

[BESIEGING.] Besieging is, when any Planet is places betwixt the bodies of the two Malevolent Planets Saturn and Mars: as Saturn in 15. Aries, Mars in 10. of Aries, Venus in 13. Aries: here Venus is besieged by the two infortunes, and it represents in questions, a Man going out of Gods blessing into the warm Sun; I mean is Venus be a Significatrix that time in time in the figure. William Lilly

Johannes

Question and I dread having to refer to my own chart, but I do. Moon I can see as malefic because it's square Mars, in 6 and is my 8 ruler, even though it's in Taurus so pretty good by essential dignity.

Venus is in 3 in Pisces, and my one unafflicted planet - except for being cadent and the ruler of 6 - it doesn't have any bad aspects, at least. Does that take away my only benefic?

Jupiter is way too complicated in my chart to even bring it into this one.

The idea that a planet escapes besiegement if it makes an aspect to another planet before joining with the Malefic is interesting to me.

To use the idea of besieged:

When a planet, Venus in my case applies to a sextile with both Mercury and Jupiter, even though it is between Mars and Saturn, must signify something akin to having reinforcements brought in.

Besieged simply means to be surrounded. To have no escape and to have armies waiting on both sides. To me then, having a sextile to that Venus must be like an airdrop or a bridge over the enemy.

If Venus ruled the house of allies and seconds then a friendly army could turn up and lift the siege.

For more examples see an article on the subject by Helena Avelar of the Academy of Astrology on their website.

Matthew

PS I see that the Academy have put some new articles on, many of them generously provided free or for a donation

A short question:
in Lilly`s case and in Sahl`s case we can see that a lighter planet is besieged. So this planet is besieged and is translator of light at the same time.
Do we use both definitons or one of them has priority?

Best wishes,
Trojan

steven wrote:Hi Olivia,

I personally would never have considered your Moon an accidental malefic. Besides being the natural ruler of your "body" and the universal significator for the corruption and generation of all things if it happens to also be the chart luminary then its significance is to many good things especially when it is found in its exaltation. It is unfortunate that it falls in a cadent house. It is not always a horrible thing if it is joined to its sect mate Mars. If the Moon is "superior" in that square and your chart is nocturnal then while Mars will always be Mars and signify things according to its nature, when in sect and joined to its sect luminary it can be both a valuable spearbearer and helper. I too have my Moon joined in a square to Mars. But my chart is nocturnal and my Moon has very little essential dignity in its face alone. On top of that my Mars is in the 8th by division and 9th by whole sign but is found somewhat accidentally benefic because it is in its exaltation.

In years in which the cadent signs of your nativity are the angles of the SR and if the Moon should then be found angular, I warrant good things happen, not bad. Being cadent just means it cannot live up what we might expect from its exalted position. The same could be said for your exalted Venus and I am assuming here that it is either in the 3rd or 9th, both which aspect the ascendant sign and preferred to the other cadent houses.

But for both, just being cadent does not make either of no effect nor does it make them accidental malefics.

Steven

Oh if only that were true - I do have a nocturnal chart, and this year Pisces is rising with the Moon conjunct the Ascendant and Fomalhaut. If this qualifies as a good year, I want to go bury my head in the sand. Mars is in Aquarius in 3 (2 by whole sign), so no dignity there. Venus is also in 3, but in Pisces (4 by whole sign), so lots of dignity there.

I think next year I get the Moon in the Ascendant in Cancer, which is my natal 8th. Should be interesting.

ETA: Profection counts. It's also a Pisces rising year for me in profection, and that which knocks Jupiter into Cap and Mars into Taurus. Blech blech blech - but that could explain a lot.

Bonatus describes a besieged planet as one that separates from a malefic and applies to another (Con. 6). It shows a situation that is going from bad to worse.

William Lilly described a planet besieged as one that lies between the bodies of the two malefics Mars and Saturn. His example is Mars at 10 ? Aries, Venus 13? Aries, and Saturn 15? Aries. It is generally accepted that besiegement can occur by aspect as well as bodily conjunction. As a principle it refers to a planet trapped by hostile forces on either side.

I would like to revive this topic, because there seems to be some conflicting information for me at least anyway.


Some regard besiegement to be when Mars and Saturn surround an inner planet, simply through being one sign appart on either side. This seems reasonable, since that planet is surrounded by evil on both sides. And I think that this was Lilly's use, although in his explanation he placed all planets close together, and within acceptable conjunction orb.


Those are details though.

The reason I was interested in resurecting this thread was in order to try and define the nature of besiegement, regardless of the particular orbs etc.

In what way would besiegement be similar or different to a partile square to Saturn for example? Would we treat besieged planets as if they were in fact in partile squares with Mars and Saturn? Even if the orb before conjunction was 30 degrees...?

My experience with besiegement, would be that this affirmation has got some substance to it, though it is not obviously an aspect, and therefore must not be interpreted as such.

For example, Venus placed at 9 Libra (Rising), with Saturn at 9 Scorpio, and Mars at 29 Virgo (Rising). The interpretation that I make is that this Venus although strong by essence and accident, has got to contend with being hampered from both sides.

To what extent though, can we describe the troubles of this besieged Venus? Since Venus is not actually in orb of either planet, (only Saturn by semi-sextile) the usual distinction must not be interpreted. However, although Saturn and Mars are not really seen by Venus, they are around her. To me they would signify people who may wish to hurt Venus.

Examples would be interesting to look at. Nicolas Cage has got an Aqua Venus Besieged by dignified malefics. But then that venus is also conjunct Saturn... so it would be hard to separate those towo distinctions.