Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi all,

I am wondering what people's experience is in locating significators for parents in the natal chart?

There are two main approaches in the tradition. One utilising natural significators suggests the Father is represented by the Sun in a day nativity and by Saturn in a night nativity. Correspondingly the Mother is symbolised by Venus in a day chart and by the Moon in a night chart.

The other system relies on the houses and their rulers. In particular the 4th and 10th houses. I will call this approach the system of 'accidental significators' based on house cusps. The majority of sources assign the Father to the planet ruling the 4th house while the Mother is assigned the 10th house. Although some assign both parents to the 4th house.

I am wondering what people's practical experience is in this area from actual work delineating charts? What method is most reliable in your experience? Or have you found a way to blend both approaches in delineation? What about planets posited in the 4th/10th house vs the house rulers?

I am not going to state my favoured approach to this issue at this stage as I more interested in other members views at this point in the discussion.

Mark

Hello Mark,

First off, whenever I see "in the tradition" it aggravates my gout.

My practice is to use both the general significators(Sun/Saturn and Venus/Moon) and topical significators(rulers & planets in the 4th and 10th) along with the image(s) and ruler(s) where the Lots of Father and Mother are located. The idea is that of going from broader to more specific types of information. I would say that at the level of the houses, not to say 4th is father and 10th mother, but that the 4th is the parents and that the 10th, being diametrically opposed to the 4th shares in its significations.

I prefer the 4th/10th approach. It is not unusual to find the lord of death coming to exact aspect with these significators around the time of death of grandparent's when looking in the chart of their children (natural death or old age) on secondary progressed charts.

First off, whenever I see "in the tradition" it aggravates my gout

Ah well its a hard task pleasing everyone in life.

I really put that in to make clear I wanted to avoid any discussion of the modern alphabet zodiac approach based ideas like Moon/Cancer/4th house= Mother in the chart.

I also wanted to avoid a detailed historical/academic discussion about which source said this and which that. We have plenty of threads like that on skyscript already. My current personal interest is in putting traditional astrological ideas to the test and seeing how well the theory matches reality.

A particular motivation for me in setting up this thread is that I have been doing lots of natal consultations lately where the straightforward 4th=Father, 10th=Mother approach has often been wide off the mark. In terms of actually describing the different characteristics of parents the natural significators seem to have more frequently worked out as accurate descriptors of each parent. This has been quite counter-intuitive for me as my experience with horary has taught me to trust house rulers over natural significators every time.

As I see it a one size fits all approach is not sufficient to this issue. I tend to agree with Gabe we need a more varied approach to this issue incorporating natural and accidental significators. I am currently inclined to look at the Moon for gauging the early childhood experience and the 4th house and its ruler to describe general parenting. However, I am using the natural significators for the actual description of parents. I would also look at the 10th house and its ruler but again in a more generic way than simply seeking signification for the Mother.

Sometimes though the two approaches diametrically clash and you have to make a choice. For example if you have a night chart with Cancer on the 4th house cusp and Capricorn on the 10th house the indicators are opposed for house rulers and natural significators.

I haven't used the lots for parents but its something I may explore further.

Mark

Hello MarkC,

Always an interesting topic (i.e. parents). This is one topic that I wish I can nail down as easy as others in astrology (not that others are that easy!). Other topics that are currrently having my attention are:
1) Multiplicities. An example is marriage. How to know the number of marriages or significant unions in a chart? How to differentiate them? How to tell which ends up in divorce and which is widowed? The multiplicities in marriage my also mean many marriages at the same time (polygamy which is very common in my society) or many monogamous marriages, so how can we tell which is which from a natal chart? How many children one would have? How many are sons and daughters? Which ones survived? Do abortions count as the number of children? How many siblings? How many jobs and their types...

2) Those that have many signifiers e.g. parents. How to allocate emphasis? How know which to use when the signifiers give contradictory outcomes? And talking about parents, can the same signifiers be used for adopted parents? Or do they have different signifiers?

3) In opposition to the second above, what to do with topics that have identical signifiers? An example, in a day chart sun represents the father as well as your life (as it is the main luminary). If sun is in a fire sign, then sun is also the description of your first part of life. Does this mean when the signifier is afflicted, both father and your first life (and other topics in life) are afflicted? Some say we should look at all the different signifiers of one topic but we come to another problem - what if they give contradictory outcomes?

I have some partial answers to the above but maybe when I have more data and examples to show, I will share it with members here.

We come to the parents topic.

I tend to agree with you (MarkC) that the natural significators seem to describe the parents better (as I have seen myself in practice). However, I would also look into the other significators and see which seem to be a better description of the parents (astrologically speaking) and give them a certain rank of hierarchy. Let's say that I wich to look for the significator of parents. Candidates are:

1. Natural/Universal significators:
Father: Sun by day, Saturn by night.
Mother: Venus by day, Moon by night.

2. Accidental rulers
Father: 1st triplicity Lord of the 4th, planets in 4th and or ruler(s) of 4th
Mother: 1st triplicity Lord of the 10th, planets in 10th and or ruler(s) of 10th

3. Lots of parents and their ruler(s)

Which one then? Depends on the chart.

If Sun by day or Saturn by night is strongly configured to the 4th, then Sun or Saturn is definitely the significator. If a chart has Sun by day aspects the 4th house (whole sign) which happens to be in the sign Leo, then Sun is the Father. This is because the first triplicity Lord and domicile Lord of the 4th is the Sun which is also the natural significator of father. [The same goes for mother but using of course Venus/Moon with 10th house].

If Sun by day or Saturn by night is not in anyway configured to the 4th house but is strongly configured to the sign where Lot of Father is, then Sun or Saturn is definitely the significator. If a chart has Sun by day aspects the Lot of Father (whole sign) which happens to be in the sign Leo, then Sun is the Father. This is because the first triplicity Lord and domicile Lord of the Lot of Father is the Sun which is also the natural significator of father. [The same goes for mother but using of course Venus/Moon with Lot of Mother].

You can start to see that although I favor the universal significator (at least for the investigation on parents), I still want to see that it is configured to the house and/or Lot of the topic in question. The theory is that no planet can represent its natural/universal topics unless it is also configured to the house and/or Lot that represent the same topic.

If the universal/natural ruler is not the significator of father/mother, then we refer to the rulers of the house/Lot. If the first trip Lord of the 4th house aspects the 4th house and also the Lot of Father, it can be used as the significator of Father [the same for mother but use first trip Lord of 10th and Lot of Mother]. If the first trip Lord of Father is not the significator, then use the domicile Lord of Lot of Father. If it aspects both the 4th house and the Lot of Father, use it then [the same goes for mother but use domicile Lot of Mother and 10th house]. If the 1st trip Lord of the 4th aspects the 4th but not the Lot of father use the domicile Lord of the Lot of Father if it aspects both the 4th house and the Lot of Father [and vice versa]. If somehow this is not possible, use any ruler of the Lot that is also configured to the Lot and the 4th house e.g. if Exalted Lord of the Lot of Father is also domicile Lord of the 4th and it is configured to the 4th - then use that.

The trick here is to find the candidate that is mostly configured to the 4th house (for father or 10th house for mother) and the Lot. If the universal significator cannot represent the parent, use the other candidates that are mostly configured to the 4th house, the Lot AND the universal significator itself.

This looks complicated but it's not really. It is a very general rule that needs no memorization. Whatever topic we analyze in a chart, we always start with the universal ruler (if there exist one) and check its activation (i.e. its specific validity) via configuration (aspects) with the house and/or Lot. If not, then we turn to the ruler(s) of the house and/or Lot in question and check its activation via the ruler(s) configuration with the said house/Lot.

Once you have the method, you can do it within seconds and most of the time, the universal significator is the likely candidate anyway! That's why it seems to work most of the time.

BTW, there are only a few areas of life that I start with the Universal Significators (others I go straight with the house and/or Lot). Parents (Father: Sun by day, Saturn by night, Mother: Venus by day, Moon by night), relationships (Venus), Wealth (Jupiter - but I prefer to start with Lot of Fortune and then 2nd house).

What happens if all three levels of significators (universal, specific house ruler(s) and ruler(s) of the specifc Lot) are acitvated? Then we can intepret the distinction among all of them. Universal significator gives us the description of the topic, the house gives us our active role in it or what we do about it and the Lot tells us what we get not from our own active doing.

An easy example is wealth. Jupiter as universal significator (if it is activated via configuration with second house and/or Lot of Fortune) describes his overall wealth. The second house rulers describe his potential of creating wealth (what he does to gain wealth). The Lot of Fortune represent his luck in wealth (the wealth that somehow comes to him with or without his active participation). I have a client whose Lot of Fortune and Jupiter very strong and yet the 2nd house rulers are very weak (not even activated). His wife received 20 million USD from her father when she got married to him (both very young) and since then, he never worked a single day in his life. He always seem to land in good investments and he just have to manage the wife's fund (because the wife trusts him wholeheartedly). This is very much strong Jupiter and Lot of Fortune but weak second house rulers indicate.

For parents, the universal/natural significator describes the parents, the specific house ruler(s) represents more his mutual relationship with his parent and the Lot represents the parent's Lot during and before he was born.

Note: If the universal significator is activated, the first trip Lord of the significator can be used to represent his parent's overall life and the term Lord of the universal significator can be used to represent the social class of the parent in question (this is from Liber Hermetis).

I also think that triplicty rulers of fourth house must to take into account.Here is one example showing how Alte Meister have worked.The horoscope is of Eleanor of Portugal, Empress of the Holy Roman Empire.The interpretation is made by Regiomontanus or Georg von Puerbach.The horoscope and the horoscope?s delineation are from : Joannis Regiomontani Opera Collectanea(in Latin), Felix Schmeidler (O. Zeller, Osnabrueck, 1972).

The birth data according to the Latin manuscript are:
16 Sept 1436
04:11 a.m LMT
Torres Novas, Portugal
Campanus house system

The birth data in the Latin manuscript differ significantly from the date given in the book Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro ?Astrologia Real?, 2004 (in Portuguese). Here is the Latin text:

Quarta domus parentes significat, occulta et series rerum. Vidi itaque Jouem dominum 4e domus et primum dominum triplicitatis eiusdem atque dominum partis patris in succedente in signo masculino bene dispositum. Hoc indicat magnam patris nobilitatem, altitudinem, divicias posse et bonam fortunam presertim eo anno, quo hec nativitas facta est.Parentes hanc natam reliquis eorum liberis plus honorarent et amarunt; trahitur ex domino 4e in secunda salvo Lunam in 4a recipiente. Luna domina 11me domus in 4a significat parentes debilis et pauce vite post presenterai nativitatem fuisse. Maxime Saturnus patris significator peregrinus et retrogradus in opposito Martis cor Scorpii quoque nature marcialis in cuspide huius domus et pars patris presencia Saturni dampnata paucam et infirmam patris post hanc nativitatem affirmant.Matrem denique fuisse vivaciorem patre, protendant melior condicio Lune et partis ma tris quam Saturni et partis patris.Luna accedens ad quadraturas Saturni et Martis significat matrem seu aliquem ex fratribus suis in magnis adversitatibus morientem.

Here is my free translation in English:

Fourth house indicate parents, hidden things and lineage.And we can consider that Jupiter rules fourth house, and that he is the first triplicity ruler of fourth house and also he is a governor of the Lot of Father, Jupiter is located in the succedent house, in a male sign and is well situated. This means nobility and lofty position for the father, he will be rich and with a good fortune for this year, and it is a fact of birth.
Parents would prefer the native to other children giving her honour and love: this is because the ruler of the fourth in the second house receive the Moon in the fourth.The Moon, which is the ruler of the eleventh house is located in the fourth and this means debility for parents and they will live a short life after the native?s birth.Saturn, which is the significator for the father is peregrin, retrograde and in opposition with Mars, and the star Antares (cor Scorpii) which is with the same Martian nature is on the cusp of the same house [fourth] and the Lot of the Father is with Saturn and all this things talking about debility and short life of the father.
The mother will live longer than the father, because the Lot of Mother and Moon are in better condition than that of Saturn and the Lot of Father.The Moon in applying square to Saturn and Mars indicate that the mother or some of the brothers will be involved in major opposition after [father?s] death.

Note:accoding to the Latin manuscript the Lot of Father is located in 20;4 Pisces and the Lot of Mother in 12;26 Leo.

Mother: 1st triplicity Lord of the 10th, planets in 10th and or ruler(s) of 10th

There is one very important point that should be noted: the 10th house don?t represent the mother, the 4th house is the house who represent the both parents-the mother and the father. The beginning of this mistake come from a crucial misreading and misunderstanding of Ptolemy Tetrabiblos-especially book III.6.

Here is Robbins translation:

"5.Of Brothers and Sisters

As for that of brethren, if here too one examines only the general subject and does not carry beyond the bounds of possibility his inquiry as to the exact number and other particulars, it is more naturally to be taken, when it is a question of blood-brethren alone, from the culminating sign, the place of the mother, that is, that which contains by day Venus and by night the Moon; for in this sign and that which succeeds it is the place of the children of the mother, which should be the same as the place of the brethren of the offspring.?

Same text, but in R.Schmidt?s translation:

"?that which concerns only children of the same mother would more naturally be taken from the culminating twelfth-part of the maternal place, that is, from the place containing Aphrodite by day and the Sel?n? by night. This is because this zoidion and the one post-ascending it are made the place concerning the children of the mother, which ought to be the same as the place concerning siblings of the offspring."

In other words the 10th and 11th sign(house) from the place of Venus or Moon are the houses of children of native?s mother in derivative house system.In many Hellenistic authors, like Paulus Alexandrinus, the 10th house(sign) is the place of native?s children, not of the mother.Same for 11th house.

Thank you astrojin,

A very helpful and elucidating post.

You have given me much more to work with here.

Can I just clarify when you talk about planets configured with the 4th or 10th house are you just considering generic aspects to a whole sign house rather than by degree?

I can see what you mean by a hierarchy and looking for as many verifications for one planet as you can find.

I am still a little confused when you would go to domicile rulers as opposed to triplicity or part rulers? You give a systenmatic approach to working through the natural significators and then the triplicity ruler and lot ruler. Are you suggesting that consideration of domicile rulers would only come after eliminating (or finding further testimony from) the triplicity or part rulers?

Also could you please give me what the calculation is for the lot of Father and Mother is?

I was interested what you said about using other natural significators. In regards relationships are you using Venus as a significator for all relationships or just in the case of men? One often sees the Moon and Venus suggested for women in male charts and the Sun and Mars and male charts. However, as you indicate above life is often more complicated. For example clients who are gay or bisexual make such an approach problematic.

Thanks Astrotart.

An interesting translation demonstrating how this kind of thing is delineated traditionally.


Mark

There is one very important point that should be noted: the 10th house don?t represent the mother, the 4th house is the house who represent the both parents-the mother and the father

An interesting position. Its sounds a little similar to what Gabe was saying above. Although you seem to be suggesting the 10th house has no associations at all relating to parents. Its certainly the case that not all the medieval sources split the parents this way. Al Biruni assigns both parents to the 4th house and makes no reference to parents in regards associations of the 10th house. Regarding the 4th house he gives the following associations:

Parents, grandparents, descendants, real estate, fields, houses, water-supply, knowledge of genealogy; what succeeds death and what happens to the dead.

Mark

Hello all,

Astroart, this may be quibbling, but I think both of those translations could be read the same way, meaning using the 10th image from either Venus or the Moon, just that the Robbins is rather convoluted. Also, Paulus used the 4th and 5th and 10th and 11th for children; still simpler than Bonatti, though.

I think it was more some Aristotelian thinking that made people put the mother into the 10th house, but I'd like to hear more ideas from some others. Wasn't it mentioned before that some version of the Tetrabiblios that had been altered and used by the Arabic-period astrologers was going to be soon published?

Because according to the Hellenistic tradition the fourth house represents the parents ?both mother and father, the question what arises is: How then from this house to distinguish father from mother. I think the answer can be found in one very interesting passage in Liber Hermetis(W.Gundel, Neue astrologische Texte des Hermes Trismegistos, Munchen, 1936, p.47):

"Et Sol quidem habens receptionem in angulo terrae et proprietatem in loco significat patri, Luna vero matri. Receptio quidem fit, quando angulus terrae domus Solis aut Lunae vel exaltatio aut triplicitas. Et in Sole quidem, quod sit masculinum signum, in Luna vero femininum."

Here is my free translation in English:

"If the Sun also have a reception in the earth angle and a rulership in this place, [this angle ] means the father, if it is the Moon ? the mother.A what is a reception [of the sign of the fourth house], this is when the [sign of the] earth angle is a domicile of the Sun or Moon, or exaltation or triplicity.And the reception is also of the Sun if the sign is male, and of the Moon if [the sign] is female."

Hello MarkC,

Can I just clarify when you talk about planets configured with the 4th or 10th house are you just considering generic aspects to a whole sign house rather than by degree?

Configuration here means aspect by whole sign. When I study areas of life from a natal chart, I use whole sign house. Hence, there is no degree of a house - making whole sign aspect the logical way to go.

I am still a little confused when you would go to domicile rulers as opposed to triplicity or part rulers? You give a systenmatic approach to working through the natural significators and then the triplicity ruler and lot ruler. Are you suggesting that consideration of domicile rulers would only come after eliminating (or finding further testimony from) the triplicity or part rulers?

My approach to natal astrology is very much medieval with the exception of the house/aspects systems used in extracting the areas of life. When loking into areas of life, I would use the 3rd/4th/10th sign from the ascendant (not house) to delineate say siblings/parents/career of a native. However, following the medieval approach (Bonatti, Ibnu Ezra, etc.), I use the triplicity Lord to delineate the specific areas of life within a house that may represent many topics in life.

The fourth house can represent many things i.e. parents, your home, land, the end of things, life after death, etc. I strongly believe that using only one planet to represent all matters of fourth house is wrong. There are many areas of life governed by the 4th house. There are also many rulers of the 4th house. So, it should be logical to assume that these different rulers govern different areas of life in matters governed by the 4th house. An astrologer who uses only domicile ruler of a house to delineate everything the house rules will get his/her prediction wrong. This is the dilemma I had when I started with modern astrology in my early days. Later, when I delved into medieval astrology, I was exposed to the idea of the three triplicity rulers governing three different topics in a house (main references are Bonatti and Ibnu Ezra). Hence, my preference for using the triplicity rulers in delineation. Using the 4th house as example, the first triplicity ruler governs father, the second governs land and the third, endings (or llife after death). Therefore, the first triplicity ruler is given more emphasis for representing father than the domicile lord (if the domicile lord is not the same as the first triplicity lord of the 4th). However, whatever is the candidate for ruling whatever, it must be activated in a chart. "Activation" is another concept I was exposed to during my studies in medieval astrology. The candidate must be configured to the house in question for it to represent matters governed by the house.

Assume that a native's ascendant is Libra. The fourth sign from Ascendant is Capricorn. The rulers/dispositors of Capricorn are Saturn (domicile ruler), Mars (exalted ruler), Venus, Moon and Mars (triplicity rulers for day born native. Swap the first and the second for night born native). As I am using the whole sign house system, there is no term ruler of a house (term rulers exist only for Planets and calculated points which can be located to specific degrees. Houses in whole sign house system are for the whole sign).
Assume also that the Lot of Father is in 12 deg Aquarius. The dispositors/rulers of the Lot of Father are Saturn (domicile ruler), Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter (triplicity rulers for day born native. Swap the first and the second for night born native) and Venus (term ruler). Like Hellenistic astrologers and some medieval astrologers (e.g. Omar of Tiberias), I do not use face rulers. Note: .

If the native is born during the day, sun is a candidate for his father (universal ruler). The first triplicity lord of the 4th is Venus. Venus also a candidate for the native's father. The Lot of Father is also another candidate. If both sun and Venus aspect the 4th and the Lot, Sun is the significator of father because it is universal significator and determined to the 4th as well as to the Lot. If sun does not aspect 4th (and at the same time aspects the Lot) but Venus aspects both the 4th house and the Lot, Venus is the significator of the father becaue Venus is the domicile ruler of the 4th (See how the domicile rulers comes in!) and the term ruler of the Lot.

If however, the native was born at night and Saturn (universal ruler) aspects the 4th, Saturn is definitely the father bacause Saturn is the domicile lord of the 4th (See again how the domicile lord is used). If Saturn does not aspect the 4th but it aspects the Lot, it is also the significator of father as it is the domicile lord of the Lot of father (as well as the 1st triplicity lord of the Lot).

Also could you please give me what the calculation is for the lot of Father and Mother is?

As I am sure you are well aware, the usual formula of a Lot is:
Asc + P1 - P2

P1 and P2 are planets or points. The above is the representation of the Lot in algebraic form. The Hellenistic and ancients before the Arabs did their calculation geometrically.

Geometrically, the Lot is the degree one arrives to when one places P2 on the ascendant and proceed the same number of degrees in zodiacal order as there are in the smallest angle separating P1 and P2.

Lot of the Mother
Day Lot = Asc. + Moon ? Venus
Night Lot = Asc. + Venus ? Moon

The universal significators of mother are Venus in a day chart and moon in a night chart. Hence, the Lot of mother is Asc + Moon - Venus for day charts because Venus should be placed on the ascendant in a day chart. Similarly, the Lot of mother is Asc + Venus - Moon for night charts because Moon should be placed on the ascendant in a night chart.

Lot of Father
Day Lot = Asc. + Saturn ? Sun
Night Lot = Asc. + Sun ? Saturn

The universal significators of father are Sun in a day chart and Saturn in a night chart. Hence, the Lot of father is Asc + Saturn - Sun for day charts because Sun should be placed on the ascendant in a day chart. Similarly, the Lot of father is Asc + Sun - Saturn for night charts because Saturn should be placed on the ascendant in a night chart.

If Saturn is combust Hellenistic used:
Day or Night Lot = Asc. + Jupiter ? Mars

but the Arabs seemed to use:
Day Lot = Asc. + Jupiter ? Sun
Night Lot = Asc. + Sun ? Jupiter

I was interested what you said about using other natural significators. In regards relationships are you using Venus as a significator for all relationships or just in the case of men? One often sees the Moon and Venus suggested for women in male charts and the Sun and Mars and male charts. However, as you indicate above life is often more complicated. For example clients who are gay or bisexual make such an approach problematic.

For me, I use Venus as the universal/natural significator of relationship for both men and women. I do not consider other planets for universal/natural significators. I really don't think Mars can be used as universal/natural significator of relationships because Mars is discord, severing, cutting, war, conflicts, etc. (all of which are the antagonists of union in any form!) - unless Mars is also the 1st triplicity ruler or domicile ruler of the 7th or one of the rulers of the Lot of marriage (i.e. it is the accidental/specific ruler of relaitonship). The description of relationship can be gleaned from the agreement of nature, essential dignities, accidental dignities, afflictions/enhancements from malefics/benefics, etc. of the significator of relationship (be it the universal/natural significator i.e. Venus provided it is activated, or the accidental significator i.e. the 1st triplicity ruler or dmicile ruler of the 7th house). Sun and moon should represent native's relationship with men and women (respectively) in general (not intimate relationships) unless they happen (again) to be the accidental rulers of intimate relationships.