Swine Flu - Should we take the vaccine?

At the Mundane Section we have been running a thread on the Swine Flu Fear. I wondered whether this chart should be added to that the thread, but then it more properly belongs at the Horary Section. The Norwegian government annonced yesterday that the entire Norwegian population will be offered a vaccine against the Swine Flu. The decision is controversial because authorities know little about the epedemic itself and what to expect in the 'second wave'. 10 people have died so far in Norway, two in Sweden and nill in Denmark.

The vaccine is controversial because of the Mercury content and that it hasn't been tested for side effects over a longer period of time. Medical doctors do not how long the the vaccine will last and are at the presently suggesting a second dose of the vaccine after several months. The vaccine is expected to give protection for 10 years. Only 20% of the Norwegian population have said they are positive to the vaccine.

Upon watching a television spot on the Government's decision my wife asked: "What are we going to do? Should we take the vaccine?" A lot of Norwegians were probably asking themselves the same question at that very point in time. The chart is cast for Oct. 23. 2009, time 22.55 CEST, Asker near Oslo.
The querent is represented by the ascendant, it's lord and planets in the first house. Mars is on the ascendant and the querent is born in Aries. Mars is in reception with the Sun, lord of the ascendant, that is in Scorpio in the 4th house. She is a physiotherapist and studying psychology. Scorpio is the sign associated with Norway. This is a national issue. Mars on the cusp of the 1st house seems to be an appropriate signifer of of needles and doctors. "Do we take the injection?" Mars is in the terms of the lord of the 6th, Saturn. The lighter planet being in the terms of a heavier, Al-Biruni would say that the lighter planet was the agent and servant of Saturn.

The Moon is co-sigificator in the question and located at 7CP09 on the cusp of the 6th house in the sign of her detriment. She is in her detriment, yet is in her own triplicity and not without resources. She is also in the same sign as the Dragon' Head, so she is not entirely without a mind. The Moon in Capricorn almost always indicates something that is working poorly or struggling to work properly. The 6th house does describe the health issue. Capricorn does address questions of the immune system and Capricorn is a sign of a complex chemistry and biological contradictions. However, a planet in it's own triplicity will always be in the position to do something constructive and summon resources. Both lights are below the horizon in this chart. Could that be due to the lack of knowledge and experience of a potential epidemic? A handful of casualities does not seem to be an alarming number, but then the consequences could be fatal for some. The particular thing with the Swine Flu is that it is killing people that elsewise are healthy and sound.

Saturn, dispositor of the Moon and lord of the 6th house, is in the 30th degree of the humane sign Virgo in the 4th house. This normally shows a disease that is movable and on the leave. However, with Saturn in the 4th - there is the question of mortality. The Moon applies to a dexter square to Venus, which I assume gives the option of playing safe. Saturn has yet to enter the sign of his diginity by exaltation and term; Venus is already there in her domicile and term. Venus is lady of the 11th house, the house of relief - is this the vaccine and the medicine? Venus is joined to Vindemiatrix - a fixed star tht shows world's in collision. It this what the vaccine does - implant the disease and then put it up against the threat from outside?

Saturn peregrine in the final degree of Virgo in the 4th house holds no promise. There will be fatalities. Venus, lady of the 11th, located in the 4th house and in Libra - the vaccine seems to bring ease and an end to the matter, and put things to rest. I still have to think through my take on this problem. I believe there is the need to show repect for the needs and preferences of people in one's environment, but whether precautions should be taken and the vaccine taken, is presently a question to be decided by the individual.

With Saturn on IC and exaltation ruler of the 6th on the ascendant I think that I would rather give it a miss.

Matt

Just my cynical viewpoint, but is there a chance that the drug companies and powers that be are simply looking for a mass trial of some new drug - using the majority of the nation as guinea pigs?

My thoughts were that you are the ascendant, the doctors are the 7th house and the medicine is the 10th. Mars is ruler of the sign intercepted in the 10th, and could that not signify that they are not being entirely honest about this 'medicine' and this is afflicting the ascendant.

I'm also looking for something to signify the doctors practising something and wondering if that would be third from seventh ?? Please feel free to dispute this - I'm maybe winging it a little here! If so then that would be shown by Jupiter which is on 8th cusp. This is the same ruler as the actual MC - is this just confirmation that this drug and their practice/trials are one and the same?

The doctor would be the 7th - ruled by Saturn which is right on the IC - are the doctors themselves opposed to this 'medicine'?

Also Moon is ruler of 12th showing harm you do to yourself (i.e. in taking the vaccine?) on the 6th cusp.

Without astrology, only using ccommon sense, I really can't see how 'they' can advise people to take this vaccine when so little is known, tried and tested about it. It's just way too scary!

Don't know if I've helped - maybe confused you all the more!

Just my cynical viewpoint, but is there a chance that the drug companies and powers that be are simply looking for a mass trial of some new drug - using the majority of the nation as guinea pigs?

My thoughts were that you are the ascendant, the doctors are the 7th house and the medicine is the 10th. Mars is ruler of the sign intercepted in the 10th, and could that not signify that they are not being entirely honest about this 'medicine' and this is afflicting the ascendant.

I'm also looking for something to signify the doctors practising something and wondering if that would be third from seventh ?? Please feel free to dispute this - I'm maybe winging it a little here! If so then that would be shown by Jupiter which is on 8th cusp. This is the same ruler as the actual MC - is this just confirmation that this drug and their practice/trials are one and the same?

The doctor would be the 7th - ruled by Saturn which is right on the IC - are the doctors themselves opposed to this 'medicine'?

Also Moon is ruler of 12th showing harm you do to yourself (i.e. in taking the vaccine?) on the 6th cusp.

Without astrology, only using ccommon sense, I really can't see how 'they' can advise people to take this vaccine when so little is known, tried and tested about it. It's just way too scary!

Don't know if I've helped - maybe confused you all the more!

Matt wrote:With Saturn on IC and exaltation ruler of the 6th on the ascendant I think that I would rather give it a miss.

You could have a point. The infortunes are angular. A few decades ago we were all removing almagan from our teeth because of damage to the nervous system. Now we could be injecting Mercury back into the system? There are so many things about medicine I don't understand.

Personally, I like to allow either an exalted planet or a planet that disposes a sign by exaltation represent anything extra-ordinary - for good or for ill according to whether it was a fortune or infortune. Mars rules the 6th by exaltation and is placement of the 1st shows an extra-ordinary situation.

HoraryQueen wrote:Just my cynical viewpoint, but is there a chance that the drug companies and powers that be are simply looking for a mass trial of some new drug - using the majority of the nation as guinea pigs?

I think that is pressing it a bit. The Norwegian Government are not apt to provide vaccines for an entire nation if they didn't think there was a need to act, but it is obvious that they are confused, treading foreign ground and trying to make the right decision. Norwegian authorities are confused by the fact of there are more casualities in Norway compared to other Scandinavian countries. They also reckon that the swine flu may be with us for three years.

HoraryQueen wrote:
The doctor would be the 7th - ruled by Saturn which is right on the IC - are the doctors themselves opposed to this 'medicine'?

Here in Britain doctors and nurses are to be treated as priority cases for the vaccine but many of them ae relunctant to take it.

Back in June the chief medical officer said 12% of the working population would have the disease. Now he is backtracking and saying we had a "lucky" escape.

Whilst weekly cases are in their thousands only about 14 people are in intensive care in any one week and the death toll is in single figures(again per week). Of course "No man is an island" and one death diminishes us all but is it worth flapping about?

Matt

...one death diminishes us all but is it worth flapping about?

I can see your point, but unfortunately yes - it could me my child, my wife or even myself. If it is somebody elses wife or child, that doesn't make it less important. The thing with the Swine flu is that it is out of control and they do not understand why the fit and healthy are dying. It could get out of hand. History also tells us that we are due for an epidemic or something. Without going off the bend, I do not think that Mankind has isolated itself or raised itself above vulnerability.

My dilemma, as the father of 3 young children, is both in terms of my responsibility for their health and welfare - but also the need to survive as a father. My wife is health and sound but has on the one side suffered troubles with the respiration system, on the other hand she had trouble with almagan.

I, for one, do not believe that medicine has all the answers to all our ailments - but history tells me that there are powers beyond my control and the fact that I am living in a part of the world that does not suffer from famine, poverty and war, is not a situation that I should take for granted. This is a hard one. I think health authorities are trying to act according to their responsibility.

Just to clarify my comment was in complete ignorance of other countries and maybe Scandinavia is a little less 'crazy seeming' than the UK, so I don't want to cause any offense or slag off anyone else's country!

It just seems that in this country doctors hands seem to be a bit tied by the big drug companies at times - no offense to the individual doctors of course - I think they are wonderful people generally.

(I'm having a Venus return - can you tell?!)

I think they are wonderful people generally.

It has something to do with the basics. Good water and good bread.

A friend of mine, an athlete, 28 years old and healthy as a horse (as they say here) just died of swine flu. On September 6th she was fine and camping with Friends, on the 7th her boyfriend rushed her to urgent care, by the end of the evening she was on breathing support and unconscious, she died almost three weeks later. She worked at the business below which is one of the reasons that the following email was sent out...I hope these facts are useful to you.

here from a Nurse I like and trust are some facts...

We have a second case of presumptive Novel H1N1 in S. H.: One of our programmers was given that presumptive diagnosis yesterday. It is likely that she acquired this infection at GWW(a camping event with over 1000 participants); she will not be at work until she is non-contagious. It is unlikely that she is the only individual to return from GWW with this virus. Since she started on the antivirals within 72 hours of the onset of symptoms, we expect an unspectacular course of the disease: After all, most swine flu cases present as a mild case of conventional seasonal flu. Nonetheless, it is important to be aware of the danger involved in a small percentage of cases, so I have thought it wise to remind everyone of the information that we have on this variant of influenza.

We do not know a lot about this variant of the Influenza A virus, so many of the recommendations made with respect to it are guesses based on the epidemiology of the seasonal influenza virus. If you feel that you may have this virus, do not go to work: It is important that we break the epidemiological cycle of this disease. The contagious period for it begins from 24 hours before your symptoms begin to at least 24 hours after the end of any signs of fever. It is possible that the contagious period is longer - we don't know. In order for the antivirals to be effective, they need to be given within 72 hours of the onset of symptoms. The sooner the better. Many antivirals do not have any effect against the H1N1 Novel virus; the two that do are listed below. If you think that you may have the swine flu, go to Urgent Care and tell them that you have been in contact with someone who died of this virus. Get them to prescribe you one of the appropriate antivirals. Do not take any chances with this.

The vaccine for this virus is currently available, but only in small amounts (being administered mostly to pregnant women). It is estimated that by December 1st, the Santa Clarita area will have sufficient dosages to begin a vaccination program for the at-risk groups. Orange County may receive it earlier; I do not know about other areas. Three weeks after this vaccination, you are considered immune to the virus...so by Christmas we should be OK.

I have appended to this email what might be considered "too much information". It is intended to serve you as a reference. Much of this data was taken from the CDC website; a couple of other sites were also used as resources. Please feel free to send this information on to other people. I do not want anyone else to suffer Kolfinna's fate.

Eichling von Amrum

_____________________________________________________________

Signs and symptoms --- The most common clinical findings of the 2009 H1N1 influenza A pandemic have been fever, cough, sore throat, malaise, and *headache*; vomiting and diarrhea have also been common, both of which are unusual features of seasonal influenza [17,28,41 </online>]. Other frequent findings have included chills, myalgias, and arthralgias [17,28 </online>].

Table: Symptoms of hospitalized novel H1N1 patients
Symptom

Number (%)
Fever* 249 (93%)
Cough 223 (83%)
Shortness of breath 145 (54%)
Fatigue/Weakness 108 (40%)
Chills 99 (37%)
Myalgias 96 (36%)
Rhinorrhea 96 (36%)
Sore Throat 84 (31%)
Headache 83 (31%)
Vomiting 78 (29%)
Wheezing 64 (24%)
Diarrhea 64 (24%)


Incubation period --- Although the precise incubation period has not been established for pandemic H1N1 influenza A infection, it could range from one to seven days, and most likely from one to four days.

Shedding --- Since the duration of shedding of pandemic H1N1 influenza A virus is currently unclear, the estimated duration of shedding is based upon what is known for seasonal influenza virus. Immunocompetent patients with pandemic H1N1 influenza A virus infection are likely to be contagious from one day prior to the development of signs and symptoms until resolution of fever . Longer periods of shedding may occur in children (especially young infants), elderly adults, patients with chronic illnesses, and immunocompromised hosts. Recommendations for the duration of home isolation for ill individuals in the community and for isolation precautions in hospitalized individuals are discussed separately. (See "Prevention of pandemic H1N1 influenza ('swine influenza')" <topic>, section on Home isolation and see "Prevention of pandemic H1N1 influenza ('swine influenza')" <topic>, section on Precautions).

As of September 12, 2009, 99% of circulating influenza viruses were 2009 H1N1 viruses susceptible to both oseltamivir and zanamivir.

Unlike seasonal influenza, the risk of a fatal infection from Novel H1N1 is greatest in the population of 'young healthy adults'. CDC studied the hospital records of 268 patients hospitalized with novel H1N1 flu early on during the outbreak. The number of deaths was highest among people 25 to 49 years of age (39%), followed by people 50 to 64 year of age (25%) and people 5 to 24 year of age (16%) This is a very different pattern from what is seen in seasonal influenza, where an estimated 90% of influenza-related deaths occur in people 65 years of age and older.


Obesity is not one of the medical conditions that have previously been recognized to place people at greater risk of serious seasonal flu-related complications; however, obesity has been noted as an underlying medical condition in some hospitalized novel H1N1 patients. In a subset of 268 patients hospitalized with novel H1N1 early on during the outbreak, the body mass index (BMI)* of 227 patients** was calculated. Obesity (defined as a BMI_ _greater than or equal to 30-39.9) was noted in about 15% of these patients and morbid obesity (defined as BMI_ _greater than or equal to_ _40) was noted in about 8% of these patients. Although the importance of obesity as a contributing factor to novel H1N1 complications is currently unknown, many obese persons have other known underlying diseases that put them at risk for flu complications.

Yesterdat I received a horary from someone who had been infected with the Swine Flu. I will add data for these horaries to the thread as they occur. The question was received at 10.39 CST, Oct 29. 2009, Asker near Oslo 59N50, 10E26. Asc 3SG54 MC 14LI10 Moon 13PI08. It is the Day of Jupiter, Hour of Venus.

The cusp of the 6th is 18TA02, inconjunct it's ruler, Lady of the Hour, Venus at 18LI00. She is culiminating in the 10th. The Moon at 13PI08 has just moved off the anticia of Venus at 11PI58. Jupiter, Lord of the ascendant, is in the terms of Venus. Venus is in the degree of the fall of the Sun, but is essentially dignified. The Moon in Pisces affects the immune system, however, I am expecting this case to be a mild variation. The benefics are predominant and there is no malicious action from the infortunes.

In the interests of science - or something - here's my decumbiture. I'd seen my doctor on Tuesday on account of an allergic reaction to medicine for an eye infection, didn't want to get a flu jab there as I tend to have bad reactions and he's 70 miles from where I live. I said I'd do that locally, but after having sturm und drang for an hour with blood tests at the lab downstairs because they couldn't find a vein, fun with the pharmacy getting the alternate eye medicine, and then the train being stalled on account of a bomb threat on the way back here, I was exhausted and just went straight home.

Did have Tamiflu on hand as I'm high risk - he'd given that to me and said if I felt flu symptoms coming on, start taking it straightaway. On Saturday afternoon I started getting some symptoms that could be flu, could just be my normal sick, but the raging fever and muscle weakness so bad I could barely stand up pretty much clinched it, so I started taking the Tamiflu. Seeing him again on Wednesday, or hospital sooner if I need to do that, though the Tamiflu seems to be knocking it so far.

Aside from what's obvious, Moon and Jupiter square by antiscia. Ascendant is conjunct Part of Peril.

19 December 2009, Vancouver, Canada, 2:40 pm (approximate - it was definitely a Mars hour, though I may be five minutes off - I didn't do the chart the moment I hit the sofa, but I did check the time and the planetary hour).