I am sorry if this has been asked before outright, but I can only remember it being briefly mentioned a few times while I have been a memeber. I am curious if other astrologers in the forum use the Sun to signify the man's physical side, and Venus for the woman's? I guess this would be Frawley's approach, though it seems to have evolved from Lilly's Christian Astrology?

If it be a man that asketh the Question, joyne the Sun and Moon with his Significators, and make him partner in the Signification; and if it be a woman, joyne Venus and Moon, and make them partners.

There is also an assignment of the Moon as the emotions, and the main significator as the person as a whole, or the logical side of the person. I don't really see the Moon that way, and it would give no indication of the other party's emotional nature, only the querent's.

I sometimes find that this makes things more confusing, especially when the opposite gender ends up with its main significator taking one of those two planets. For example, the woman ends up as the Sun, or the man as Venus.

Have you found this to be accurate in your own readings (for yourself or people you have read for)?

For myself, I do remember that my very first horary (I asked of a professional) had Venus in Aries, which is a natal placement for me, and might be descriptive of that part of my nature. Venus was also in the Sun's exaltation, and it is true that I idealized him physically (as well as in other ways). In horaries for other people, it is sometimes hit or miss (or perhaps a misinterpretation on my part).

I use these co-signicators.

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now. If venus is female querent, is she destroyed or about to get her wish? And same question if venus is co-significator. And what about when venus is cazimi?
And what would it mean if the male querent is venus?

PallasAthene wrote: My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.

According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!

Goca wrote:

PallasAthene wrote: My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.

According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!

With so much hot air around it- may be, that's how it should be

PD

Goca wrote:

PallasAthene wrote: My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.

According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!

But if sun is merely a secondary significator?

Thanks for your speedy replies!

I use these co-signicators.

So you wouldn't use them in a sexual context, just as a sort of extension of the querent/quesited?

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now. If venus is female querent, is she destroyed or about to get her wish?

It seems like the Sun conjunct Venus would heat her up at the very least! I wonder if that would increase an animal magnetism between the two parties. Conjunctions in particular can be more difficult aspects I guess. As stated on Skscript, things sort of hang in the balance.

I saw a question this week where someone used Venus as a co-sig, and she was combust the Sun as co-sig for the man. She was afraid to contact him after a period of not speaking to him. Venus also ruled the 3rd. So combustion might at least show fear, as usual. She did contact him though, and it was a favorable exchange.

And what about when venus is cazimi?
And what would it mean if the male querent is venus?

That would indeed be a rare and nice placement, since she would essentially be in his heart. I might take that to be a love of someone's life, if other factors were in agreement. I saw one chart, delienated by someone other than myself, where the Moon was cazimi the Sun (as a co-sig for the man by the astrologer), and the querent replied that she believed she was the quesited's greatest love. I can't remember where I heard that Moon cazimi is considered negative though.

I have never seen a male Venus cazimi! That would be interesting to find out. If the male is Venus and cazimi his own co-sig, I might wonder if he was in love with himself, since he is literally within his own heart. Though Lilly calls cazimi planets "wondorous strong," which could mean many things. Venus itself is a planet of love and beauty, so it might just allow him to express the greater sides of Venus, and be more loving to the other party. Harking back to an old cazimi post, I guess Bonati said that the two planets unite as one. If we do give the Sun as his "male" side, I guess his logical/sexual side might be united, so he would know what he wants, etc.

I'm sorry Tanit, but I think your approach to this matter is kind of absurd...

First you are mixing traditional and modern, which, pardon for the sincerity, is very bad in this particular case...

Second, the Sun and Venus, unless if by any accidental placement, will not be primary nor secondary significator. They will be tertiary. That said, I'd only look at them after positive testimony from the primary and/or secondary ones...

One thing to notice: in a love horary Venus and the Sun will never be the main significators, since we are looking at 1st and 7th, only Sun/Saturn and Venus/Mars is a possibility here. If the 1st house significator beholds the 1st house, we look at it, if not, we look at the Moon (cause the Moon is fastest, she can take the light of the AC ruler to the 7th ruler, giving a positive outcome, provided she beholds the AC sign and rules a good house, hopefully). If both the Moon and AC rulers are in for a promissing answer, to look at Sun and Venus is a way to see further testimony, since they are the natural significators of marriage (as taken from the lot by Valens).

If neither 1st/7th ruler and Moon are in agreement, their testimony is almost always (if not always always) entirely useless, in my opinion.

I'm not trying to reduce everything to technique (knowing motivations in a chart is a good thing) but searching to much drama damages as much as being exceding objective.

I'm sorry Tanit, but I think your approach to this matter is kind of absurd...

This isn't my approach, I was trying to figure out if this is something that is standard to most of you who do love horaries. The only time I have ever offered a Sun/Venus reading for someone is as my own advice to them when it is their own chart and they use this method.

In any case, I don't think anyone should be close-minded to any technique without trying it, or seeing if it has any relevance. I realize that horary is traditional in practice, especially since it is held within a smaller group of astrologers, and the ancient texts were only discovered over the past few tecades. I am a scientist, so I test theories. I never follow anything blindly. I am also very skeptical, and am always surprised when horary works at all.

One thing to notice: in a love horary Venus and the Sun will never be the main significators, since we are looking at 1st and 7th, only Sun/Saturn and Venus/Mars is a possibility here.

I don't think any of us need a lesson on significator assignments. The Sun or Venus may be taken, yes, and even by the opposite gender.

PFN wrote: Second, the Sun and Venus, unless if by any accidental placement, will not be primary nor secondary significator. They will be tertiary. That said, I'd only look at them after positive testimony from the primary and/or secondary ones...

Could you explain what the secondary significators would be? Thanks.

Hi Tanit

I think that the issues concerning the use of this signification are commonly misunderstood, and hope to publish a detailed article about this soon. For now, unfortunately, my following point is very condensed so I hope it makes some sense.

The use of the Sun as a significator for the man and Venus as the woman is very ancient, and demonstrates the Babylonian perspective upon the synodic cycle of Venus as it encircles the Sun, (which makes a parallel with the biblical concept of the female consort ?dancing around? or ?attending to? her king and lover). In this, the various stages of Venus separating from, turning retrograde and returning to the Sun, being separated by the Sun, and then speeding up to return back to the Sun, is seen as a symbolic reflection of the themes of attraction, union/procreation and separation between the king and his female consort. These are collective themes, so at the moment what we have in play ? underlying every horary asked about a relationship issue ? is the mundane signature of Venus, the woman, applying to the Sun, completing a union with an act of surrender. This is the woman being prepared to lose her identity to become ?as one? in her partnership with the man.

This is the way that I keep an awareness of the meaning of this cycle as a background testimony in personal relationship horaries. Right now ? in general terms - astrological timing does not support a woman playing hard to get and expecting a chase (this agrees with your experience of the recent horary you mentioned). At other times, the cycle might show that it is in a woman?s interest to hold back a little, or that a man should expect to work hard if he wants to reconcile with a lover after a disagreement. Traditional passages that show the cycle being used in this way are integrated into the works of Dorotheus, Sahl, Haly, Bonatti and most of the traditional horary texts I have seen. This does not override the use of the main significators but offers an underlying detail to consider. It?s like knowing that the weather in one month is generally different from that of another, without knowing for sure, which of two dates is likely to be most pleasant.

In the traditional use of the technique we consider only how the Sun and Venus are relating to each other. In a question asked by a woman, for example, there is no use of the 7th house ruler applying to Venus to show that the man is interested in the woman; the signification only makes use of the Sun and Venus as they are locked into their own cycle.

It really helps if students get a good understanding of the symbolism embedded into the inferior planet synodic cycles. The superior conjunction of Venus with the Sun is a major astrological event which is about to occur on January 11th. (Many modern texts claim that the inferior conjunction, which occurs when Venus is retrograde, is the start of the new cycle, but that is not correct, it is this superior conjunction which matters most!) If you can get a copy, the next issue of the Mountain Astrologer has an article of mine which explores the use of the Venus-Sun symbolism, and shows how their synodic cycle is incorporated into traditional horary technique. It has some good diagrams which were drawn with my own horary students in mind. For contractual reasons I won?t be able to reproduce that article on Skyscript, but hope to publish a different article, about the principles of signification in relationship charts in the spring of next year.

I hope that half-explaining hasn?t added to the confusion. One point I make to my students is that if this Sun-Venus signification leaves them confused, it is safer to overlook it. This is a background influence and the main significators tell the most important story. So if in doubt, stick with them, and don?t let the horary judgement get too complicated.

Deb

PallasAthene wrote:Could you explain what the secondary significators would be? Thanks.

I take that the primary ones are always the rulers of the houses and the secondary is the Moon. The Moon can be more important sometimes, but that is a special case, when the main significator is averse to the AC sign and the Moon is not. But if you get a situation where the main rulers are applying and the Moon does give a negative testimony, I think that the usual approach is to see the Moon as a hinder, but still the matter achieves perfection (unless other things like cadence or affliction gets in the way).

In the traditional use of the technique we consider only how the Sun and Venus are relating to each other. In a question asked by a woman, for example, there is no use of the 7th house ruler applying to Venus to show that the man is interested in the woman; the signification only makes use of the Sun and Venus as they are locked into their own cycle.

Thanks so much for your reply, Deb, and I can't wait for the Skyscript article next year (can't afford the Mountain Astrologer right now). This passage right here especially answers the major question I have been having about Sun/Venus in romance horaries. I did not want to make a connection between L1 or L7 (or Moon) to Sun or Venus either (as I have seen others do and wonder about their accuracy).

The dance between Sun and Venus is so apropos, but you are right that Venus surrendering is a bit chauvinistic! Yet, it still seems to give clues about who is chasing who, and how Sun and Venus look upon each other. If it hadn?t worked on my own horary (which I looked back on much later to test it), I probably would have been dismissive like many others.