For two years running Andrew Bevan has succesfully used astrology to predict (in this forum) the winner of the Eurovision Song Contest. This year he picked up a ?3000 prize for himself. Well done Andrew - I'm not sure what the odds must be to predict the winner correctly two years running, but with the high number of entries in this contest I'm sure it deserves a bit of attention.

Deb

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5327

Congrats to Andrew!
I am curious, was the prize money given for making an Astrological prediction, or for picking the winner in general?

Congrats to Andrew!
I am curious, was the prize money given for making an Astrological prediction, or for picking the winner in general?

I can answer that. It was for placing a stake on the winner. The stake gave the prediction credibility. I submitted ?1000 on Norway in 2009 and ?1000 on Germany in 2010. That way there could be no doubt that I was willing to put my money where my mouth was.

Several people contacted me after the result was known and told me of the importance and impression it had made on them that an astrologer had gone out so clearly in advance and predicted the Eurovision winner (and before Google, too!)

I am naturally glad for the results, but would say that I at this point have added a disclaimer to my own site that reads I accept no liability for the outfall of any prediction, estimate or likelihood provided. My judgment and personal opinion on the flow of current affairs must be considered for educational or entertainment purposes only.

Thank you for recognizing the work and effort!

I at this point have added a disclaimer to my own site that reads I accept no liability for the outfall of any prediction, estimate or likelihood provided. My judgment and personal opinion on the flow of current affairs must be considered for educational or entertainment purposes only.

Hello Andrew

I'm not aware of the legal situation in Norway, do the laws oblige/encourage you to say that information on sites like yours should be treated as 'entertainment'?

Regards

H.

Hello Andrew
I'm not aware of the legal situation in Norway, do the laws oblige/encourage you to say that information on sites like yours should be treated as 'entertainment'?
Regards H.

Hello Handn, This is a big question where I have to give an expanded answer:

First, there are restrictions on gaming (betting & gambling) in Norway that extend to the use of national/international bookmakers over the internet. In fact, as from 1. June 2010 it is not possible in Norway to use a VISE to transfer money to a betting account, UNLESS it is one of the government?s own betting games run by Norsk Tipping. These are not affected by the regulations. One-arm bandits that offered a primary source of income for humanitarian organisations have been removed from public places, shopping centres, etc. and the government expressed the intent or replacing them with their own slot-machines. Now, instead, it is possible to gamble with the refund money from your empty bottles, where I believe the profits go to the Red Cross. My wife tried it and won a bar of chocolate.

But the story continues. Betting and gambling activities is generally discouraged in Norway, except those games that are provided by Norsk Tipping, which receive the best broadcasting time on a daily basis on national TV, NRK. Profits from gaming activities are taxable, except those that are run by the government that are marketed as tax-free. (!)

Obviously, there is big money rolling round in the betting industry. I think that anyone who places money on a game, or in fact makes any sort of investment, does so because they wish for it to be profitable. Yet in most gambling instances there will be found a clause that says that these games are arranged for entertainment purposes only and an account may be closed without reason.

Closing in on the problem of astrology:
I did contest the Norwegian national telephone company Telenor, previously Televerket, in a minor court in 1995 for defining astrology as entertainment. The problem was astrology being defined as entertainment by Telenor's payphone services and them refusing to admit me a non-entertainment telephone service. I found this detrimental to my practice and could not offer my services to investors, brokers and lawyers on an entertainment basis. The payphone services were skimming the market, my business was stooping at the same time as people were saying that astrology was junk and I was receiving complaints for the low-quality/poor policy services that I myself was opposing. My appeal was heard in the minor court but if I had taken the case to a higher level the telecommunication giants would have run me into bankruptcy. So I settled with the publicity of having cast light on the problem.

Now - educational and entertainment services have largely, and up to the present date, been rated as tax-free ? meaning that there is no V.A.T. on these services in Norway. However, tax officials have declared that although astrology payphone services are defined as entertainment, they are still primarily a consultation service ? and consultants are due to add V.A.T. that is paid to the government. One of the payphone providers loop-holed this problem by closing down their Norwegian branch and re-opening in Sweden. So although the owners are in Norway and the services are delivered in Norway, the bookkeeping is done in Sweden ? so consultations are registered as export of services and not due to V.A.T. in Norway. This is to show how astrology is treated as entertainment on one official level, but as non-entertainment as soon as it comes to collecting revenues. I do not agree with the way the problem is treated and solved.

Astrological prediction and gambling:
Unless a disclaimer is included, someone is sure to turn up some day and try to claim liability. I am entitled to a personal opinion and can take responsibility for my own stakes as they offer a fair tool for me to prove my case. However, I would not like anyone to make an excessive bet over my head, which a) comes down to a policy of responsible gambling, and b) any sizable profit based on my work and industry should in principle be remunerated. However, the purpose of my work at present is that these contests represent a reasonable demonstration of astrological prediction in a manner that attracts the public eye. The predictions are sporting and playful, at the same time as many people yearn for some sort of answer to questions of a higher order. - But in short there is no reason why I should admit to greater legal liability than the betting companies and bookmakers.

I have delivered so many predictions over the last 25 years where people either said the accuracy was only a coincidence or ?anyone could have said that?. Scientific circles will continue to ridicule that astrology is a hoax. I would claim my work is educational and, as far as the future is concerned, we as astrologers can try to understand what is going on in the scheme of things but cannot expect to get every detail right every time. Including an entertainment clause on my website is, at the moment, like choosing the way of least resistance to illuminate my cause. If I raise my hand and want astrology to be taken seriously, then someone is sure to jump up in objection and attempt to bat me across the head. However, if an astrological practice can show a scorecard and profit beyond reasonable doubt, then I can push the ?entertainment? definition back to officials and scientists ? and leave it for them to sort out. Let the experts figure out what the Universe looks like and what is actually going on. If that is how they want it.

Wow, thanks for painting such a thorough picture Andrew.

I admire your courage in undertaking not just the public predictions but the court proceedings against Telenor. That really is quite something to take on, even in a minor court. They are probably very afraid of you, since you put your money where your mouth is figuratively and literally.

of course you're absolutely right about 'there is no reason why I should admit to greater legal liability than the betting companies and bookmakers.' It is a matter of equal standing and why should you or any astrologer be held to a different standard. I agree also with this strategy: 'then I can push the ?entertainment? definition back to officials and scientists ? and leave it for them to sort out.' After all, it comes from them so it is only right that it should go back to them and be left with them. It is their view so why should anyone else own it or progress it or take it on their shoulders.

"This is to show how astrology is treated as entertainment on one official level, but as non-entertainment as soon as it comes to collecting revenues."

Yes, we're all frauds until they want some tax off us or until the businesses can employ us on hotlines to make money off us.

If there is a chart for astrology as a profession, I wonder if our significator would be peregrine or fall?!

Thanks again for the insight into how things work in Norway. Let's hope things improve soon. In the meantime, more power to your elbow!

Regards

H.