Skyscript Astrology Forum

The 8th house from the Ascendant and the 8th from the Lot of Fortune both pertain to the death of the native, but surely both cannot perform the same function unless they share a ruler (or perhaps if the rulers are in a tight aspect or the same sign). So how to distinguish them?
My current thinking based on what I've seen in some natal charts is that the more malefic (ruled or associated) of the two houses shows the cause of death whereas the other may show the circumstances of the death. By circumstances, I mean in a hospital, while travelling in a motor car, on a foreign holiday and so on.
How this may work in practice is best described by a few examples.

Example 1: Robert F. Kennedy (Assassinated after giving an optimistic victory speech).
Which is more malefic?
1.8th from Asc is Sagittarius with Mercury (ruler of 2nd and 5th) ruled by Jupiter/Capricorn/9th/MC with Moon (3rd/Fortune ruler) and Venus (1st and 6th ruler). This is not a particularly malefic 8th house.
2. 8th from Fortune ("Deadly place") is Aquarius ruled by Saturn/Scorpio/7th (9th and 10th ruler) with Mars/Scorpio (also rules 12th) and Sun/Scorpio (4th ruler). This is much more malefic.

Therefore, 8th from Fortune shows the cause (violent death/assassination) and 8th from Asc shows the circumstances (having just delivered an optimistic victory speech - Mercury/Sagittarius - while seeking political office - ruler in Capricorn/9th/MC with Moon and Venus).

Example 2: John F. Kennedy (Assassinated in Dallas while travelling in an open-top limousine. He was hit in the throat and the head. This was in full view of the public and was recorded on the famous Zapruder film for the world to see). Which is more malefic?
1. 8th from Asc is Taurus with Mars (2nd and 7th ruler), Mercury (9th and 12th ruler) and Jupiter (3rd and 6th ruler). Ruler is Venus/Gemini/th with the Sun (11th ruler). This is very malefic - Mars in detriment, Mercury rules 12th of secret plots (12th is also 8th from fortune), Jupiter rules 3rd of travel by motor car and 6th of illness/assaults.
2. 8th from Fortune is in Virgo/12th with the Moon (10th ruler) ruled by Mercury/Taurus/8th - unfavourably links both.

While both are linked by the ruler of the "deadly place" being in the 8th, a distinction can still be made. The cause of his death is described in point 1 above (mixed in with the travel by motor car part which fits more with circmstances) but the most significant aspect of the circumstances of his death are that it was in public (Moon), and his (posthumous) fame is mostly for being assassinated (Saturn/Cancer/10th rules 4th, ruler is Moon/Virgo/12th/8th from Fortune).

Example 3: A less extreme example. Andre Arnaud was a French journalist, and anchorman of a European news programme. He died suddenly of cardiac arrest while on a foreign cruise at the age of 75. Source: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Arnaud,_Andre
Which is more malefic?
1. 8th from Asc is Aquarius ruled by Saturn/Leo/2nd tightly conjunct Sun/Leo. This is relatively malefic and is consistent with death from cardiac arrest.
2. 8th from Fortune is more benign: In Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter/Cancer/1st with Venus/Cancer. He died while on a boat on a foreign cruise - Jupiter rules 9th of foreign trips, in the water sign Cancer with Venus (ruler of 11th and 3rd/IC) is consistent with a pleasurable foreign cruise (perhaps in the company of his wife (Venus) although this is not stated in the biography).

Hello Stellarium,

Thank you for sharing your findings! Not many here like to give examples of their findings less they should be immediately ridiculed by those who think they know better but never contribute or by those who criticize others just to show off. Anyway, your analysis is interesting and I have been using the 8th from Asc and Fortune for some time now and I can certainly relate to your suggestions. A query. What about the seventh house? Some of the earlier astrologers said that the place where the sun sets (7th house) should also be included in the analysis of death. What is your take on this?

Thank you!

I think that you are going to find variation between charts as to which to use based upon which factors are more "telling" (chrematistikos). The general idea is that in the first hours after birth one can use the 8th, the Moon, ascendant to see if the child is reared and makes it to an advanced age in childhood (3rd, 7th and 40th day of the Moon are said to have import here). This is where the natal 8th comes in more prominently. As we age, Schmidt has said that the fortune houses gain more potency. This is backed up in statements made by Valens that fortune houses are more "potent". The reason is that birth signifies potential (which is represented by the natal angles), but fortune because it is tied to the Moon (which effluents bring into manifestation) indicate an outcome on the concrete worldly level. So depending upon the chart, one might be able to use either. Sometimes planets for a given place will not readily testify, but other locations in the chart might do so.

When Valens speaks about the 8th from fortune, he is implying a method that should be pursued which is Zodiacal Releasing (aphesis) and that one should do this for the lot of fortune to see when the most dangerous times are bodily (in addition to other methods).

astrojin wrote:Hello Stellarium,

Thank you for sharing your findings! Not many here like to give examples of their findings less they should be immediately ridiculed by those who think they know better but never contribute or by those who criticize others just to show off. Anyway, your analysis is interesting and I have been using the 8th from Asc and Fortune for some time now and I can certainly relate to your suggestions. A query. What about the seventh house? Some of the earlier astrologers said that the place where the sun sets (7th house) should also be included in the analysis of death. What is your take on this?

Thank you!

Hi astrojin,
Interesting question regarding the 7th and death - the 3 examples above all involve the 7th (RFK - Scorpio/7th, JFK - Mars rules 7th, Andre Arnaud - Saturn also rules 7th) so maybe some examples with different rulers might show a distinction. Taking an example from the Lot of Basis thread:
Elvis: 7th ruler is Mercury in Cap/3rd conjucnt Sun (9th ruler) and Venus (6th/deadly place and 11th MC). However, what actually led to his death (addiction to prescription drugs) is more consistent with Moon/Pisces ruling the 8th. Especially since Pisces is the lot of Basis. That's something else I probably should have mentioned in the first post - Whichever of the two (8th or 8th from fortune) is more connected to basis will probably be more telling about the cause of death. To answer your question, I would say the 7th is connected to death but I have seen the 8th and 8th from Fortune to be more telling. Zoidsoft has probably best addressed part of your question when he wrote:

zoidsoft wrote:I think that you are going to find variation between charts as to which to use based upon which factors are more "telling" (chrematistikos).

Presumably in some instances the 7th house may be more telling than the other 2.

zoidsoft wrote:I think that you are going to find variation between charts as to which to use based upon which factors are more "telling" (chrematistikos). The general idea is that in the first hours after birth one can use the 8th, the Moon, ascendant to see if the child is reared and makes it to an advanced age in childhood (3rd, 7th and 40th day of the Moon are said to have import here). This is where the natal 8th comes in more prominently. As we age, Schmidt has said that the fortune houses gain more potency. This is backed up in statements made by Valens that fortune houses are more "potent". The reason is that birth signifies potential (which is represented by the natal angles), but fortune because it is tied to the Moon (which effluents bring into manifestation) indicate an outcome on the concrete worldly level. So depending upon the chart, one might be able to use either. Sometimes planets for a given place will not readily testify, but other locations in the chart might do so.

When Valens speaks about the 8th from fortune, he is implying a method that should be pursued which is Zodiacal Releasing (aphesis) and that one should do this for the lot of fortune to see when the most dangerous times are bodily (in addition to other methods).

Thanks for your input, I was not aware of the importance of the 3rd, 7th and 40th day of the Moon, except where Valens mentions the 40th day of the Moon and violent deaths.

Regarding what is more "telling", I presume this would mean which is more associated with malefics?