I posted a topic in the sports astrology page about the correlations between the astrology of battles and those of modern sports games. I'm not at all sporty or even interested in sport but I am interested in astrology and it seemed to me that the astrology of two armies meeting in a field battle might find an analogy in something like a soccer game or something of that nature.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5760

To be brief, I've discovered suggestions that Bonatti, and probably others, used the 1st House for the attacking army, and the 7th House for those whose army is being attacked. In the case of a castle being besieged, the 7th house represents the army that is at home in their castle that is being attacked, whereas the 1st house represents those that are doing the attacking. Similarly, I believe, prosecuters in a court battle are 1st house as well.

What I'm wondering is, if that is true, then in a mundane chart for the beginning of a battle (or sporting match), the 1st house would likely be the 'attacking'/visiting team and the 7th house would be the home team. And yet most sports astrologers swap that signification. I was just wondering if anyone knew of where the history of this springs from? What did other ancient astrologers do? Did they use the 1st or the 7th for the 'home' army? And can we use sport as a modern analogy?

Hoping someone here will be able to provide some insight!

Thanks!

Hello Paul,

Interesting topic. Not least as it spans the Traditional, Mundane and Sports forums in scope.

I have no time to properly reply just now but I will leave this link to an article by Lee Lehman which touches on your question:

http://leelehman.com/joomla/content/view/35/40/

Mark

Tom

I agree that most armies would likely have used elections. But it's still a "chicken and egg" kind of scenario. If you accepted that the 7th house for the time of the battle signified the home team, and you yourself were an attacking army, you would likely choose such a time that the 7th house was weakened.

As it happens Bernadette Brady's article on field battles and castle besiegement is where I was first introduced to the subject. However I've been reading Bonatti's Treatise 6 and have come to a similar situation in horary which defines the same techniques for working out whether lord 1 or 7 woudl be victorious, though obviously that is in horary and so the assignation of significators is more straightforward.

However it would seem that most sports astrologers tend to prefer Lord 1 for the home team, rather than Lord 7 which is what Bonatti would suggest. Still going through Mark's link which offers more insight on the distinction between 'initiating' a game (such as after a coin toss) and the visiting team being automatically Lord 1. Seems much more subtle and complex than what it appears most people do which is to automatically assign Lord 1 as the Home team.

As Bernadette Brady has been referred to by both Tom and Paul here is her article 'Guido Bonatti's methods of analysing horoscopes of conflicts and battles':

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Cha ... 0Brady.pdf

Here is another article co-authored by Bernadette Brady and Lee Lehman on the same subject: '12th Century Castle Besiegement in Sport'.

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Cas ... tBrady.pdf

Mark

My experience with sports predictions is not encouraging. I get it wrong a lot. Sometimes it is just sloppiness on my part, but other times it is lack of understanding. I have a lady friend who has correctly predicted the winner of the Super Bowl so often that rumor has it next year they will not play the game, instead they will ask her what the outcome will be.

Nevertheless a point:

However it would seem that most sports astrologers tend to prefer Lord 1 for the home team, rather than Lord 7 which is what Bonatti would suggest.

Frawley's book Sports Astrology addresses this issue and resolves it in, what I think is a sensible way as horary is determined many times by the involvement of the querent. If you are asking about your favorite team or a team you are emotionally involved with, and you determine this by your own conversations. If you refer to the team as "we" when you are not a member, then that team gets the first house in a horary - period. If, on the other hand, you are looking at the event a bit more objectively then the home team might well be more appropriate as house 7, but other factors are used. House 7, is used, he tells us, if the team inquired about is hated.

For example, The current World Series features the Texas Rangers and the San Francisco Giants. I have no feelings about the Rangers despite the fact they defeated my beloved New York Yankees. I can't stand the Giants - never could, but Barry Bonds was something of an obscenity in my view so if I asked a horary about the World Series, I would give the Giants the 7th house.

The first house is given to whomever initiates the action. In a sports contest that is not so clear cut and it may well be an official, e.g. the jump ball in a basketball game. In a castle besiegement there are attackers and defenders. It's a bit easier.

If you are looking to make some money on the game other than a small friendly bet with a friend, the real question is, will I make money from the game and we look to see if the bookies money (8th house) is coming to us (Lord ASC).

I recommend Sports Astrology if for no other reason it is a lot of fun. For example on page 6:

"Is there any purpose in judging horaries about British tennis players?"

"Not really. Just say 'No.' You'll usually be right."

And we discover that a European football is the spiritually correct shape, circular, while the American version is elliptical as is the perception of the orbits of the planets in Kepler's fallen universe. I mean where else would you find such vital astrological information?

"House 7, is used, he tells us, if the team inquired about is hated. "

But does this make any more sense? Why the 7th? Does it follow from a tradition? That's kind of what I'm wondering.
It makes perfect sense when, in a horary, you assign the 1st house to the team with which you are affiliated if only even as a fan of that team.
However in an objective setting is there really such a thing as a 'hated' team? Imagine Man Utd vs [Other Team], well sure, Man U is the more hated, but wait, obviously NOT by the the Man U supporters.

I should have been more specific in my post. I understand the use of Lord 1 in a horary. Just not in a mundane chart where, objectively, there's no such thing as 'hated' or 'my team'.

"For example, The current World Series features the Texas Rangers and the San Francisco Giants."


As it happens that's exactly where this came from. I wondered about which signification to use for which, though I don't even know the rules of baseball let alone watch it or even be a fan of it. I just used it as a chance to practice the astrological methods. I figured, according to Bonatti, Lord 7 would go to the Texas Rangers. But then I read on Lee Lehman's site that Mark linked to that in baseball apparently the home team make the first attack (pitch? strike?whatever!), so that would make them the instigators and therefore Lord 1.
Nice and complicated. Of course lots of people still use Lord 1 regardless and only change it if the colours of the other team aren't matching up which, to me, just seems a little vague and not rooted in any tradition. However, it's FULLY possible that in the majority of games there is some such rule that the home team make the first attack. If that's the case then the actual rule is "whoever makes the first attack is Lord 1" and the reason that everyone assumes the home team is lord 1 springs from the fact that normally the home team instigate the attack.

"And we discover that a European football is the spiritually correct shape, circular, while the American version is elliptical as is the perception of the orbits of the planets in Kepler's fallen universe. I mean where else would you find such vital astrological information?"



I have his horary textbook which I liked and found nice and straightforward and easy to use. I might get his sports one too and see what he says. My understanding of Frawley's use of reception really messed me up a little though so I'm a little hesitant!

Hi Paul

In the case of battles, lawsuits or inititaed actions against someone or something else, the traditional principle is that whoever initiates the action/battle/charge/call for change is signified by the first house and the person or thing that is challenged, hunted or placed in a defensive position is represented by the 7th house of the 'other party' or 'enemy'.

I'm not sure how neatly that can be moved over into sports astrology where its often not a case of one party initiating an attack on the other, but both parties being part of a league. But I think there have been several discussions about this in the sports forum, so its worth checking there.

Best wishes
Deb

Deb wrote:

In the case of battles, lawsuits or inititaed actions against someone or something else, the traditional principle is that whoever initiates the action/battle/charge/call for change is signified by the first house and the person or thing that is challenged, hunted or placed in a defensive position is represented by the 7th house of the 'other party' or 'enemy'.

I'm not sure how neatly that can be moved over into sports astrology where its often not a case of one party initiating an attack on the other, but both parties being part of a league. But I think there have been several discussions about this in the sports forum, so its worth checking there.

Exactly. Moreover, many sporting situations dont even have a home versus visiting side. For example during the Football World Cup this summer we had this problem. Hence we had discussion on the Sports forum how to assign 1st/7th house to each side. Some suggested a sign linked to the nation, others suggested the 'colours' technique which simply identified a planet linked to one team. Others worked with a method where the 'favourite' was assigned the ascendant. I seem to recall Ficina our Sports moderator tried out a technique where neither team was assigned the 1st/7th house. It seemed as successful as any other approach proposed.

Plus as Tom has suggested Bonatti's approach seems more located in electional astrology when the ideal time for a battle is calculated beforehand. Its debateable whether it has relevance for what is effectively an event chart as we see in sports tournaments.

I got this from the Robert Zoller's 'Bonatti on War':

Bonatti's examination of warfare goes well beyond an exposition of theory. He is writing from the viewpoint of someone who has personally tested these techniques in the heat of battle. He uses real incidents to elucidate many of the rules he gives.

An illustration of Bonatti's aptitude is given by the independent Annals of Forli {an ancient town in Southern Italy}, which describes his playing a prominent part in the defence of that town in 1282. At that time, his patron Montefeltro was defending Forli against a large army sent by Pope Martin IV.

"Then Guido of Montefeltro, captain of the people of Forli, together with Lord Guido Bonatti, a citizen, philosopher, and most eminent astrologer, having called the people together in the public square," proceeded to instruct them of a manoeuvre that involved their leaving their town to return at an opportune time. On their return they set upon the enemy who had moved to occupy the fortified precincts. This strategy was a resounding success. The Annals give much credit to Bonatti making direct reference to his counsel, art of astrology and forecasting of the future all of which laid a solid foundation for the successful deployment and victory against heavy odds.

Hey thanks everyone!

I'm starting to build up a more clearer picture now. The point I was missing before was that the crux of Bonatti's approach rests upon the idea of those who initiate the action are assigned the 1st House. Naturally, this makes a GREAT deal of sense so I'm glad I asked about it because this just seemed almost totally arbitrary but my experience has been that there really is a reason for these assignations, it just takes a little probing to reveal the reasons!

I'll bear everyone's suggestions in mind. As I say I'm not really interested in sport itself per se but as I'm not in the habit of building an army nor in the habit of followings armies, sports are the only way for me to examine this more!

thanks again!

I'll bear everyone's suggestions in mind. As I say I'm not really interested in sport itself per se but as I'm not in the habit of building an army nor in the habit of followings armies, sports are the only way for me to examine this more!

Aside from becoming a sports fan or starting a war you might try political charts. As Karl von Clausewitz wrote: ''War is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means.?

There are some astrologers that look at elections this way as a non-violent contest between two opposing camps. Although there again seems to be similar confusion on the assignment of the 1st/7th house. One approach would be see the incumbent administration as the 7th house and the challengers or opposition as the 1st house. However, I know an astrologer who argues the incumbent government have 'home advantage' with the people while their open enemies ie opposition are the 7th seeking to replace them. This 1st/7th house technique seems more appropriate for elections in countries with a straightforward two party system like the USA.

Of course there are several methods of predicting the outcome of an election just as there are numerous techniques in sports astrology.

Mark

I figured, according to Bonatti, Lord 7 would go to the Texas Rangers. But then I read on Lee Lehman's site that Mark linked to that in baseball apparently the home team make the first attack (pitch? strike?whatever!), so that would make them the instigators and therefore Lord 1.

I have this theory, based largely on my spectacular lack of success predicting baseball championships with astrology: it doesn't work with baseball. It's an odd game compared to flat out physical contests like football, rugby or even tennis.

Baseball must be a very strange game to people where the game is not played. First off, the team that does not have the ball is the one that can score. In other words defense has the ball all the time. I suppose cricket and rounders are the same but I know nothing of those sports.

Baseball has no clock. The only other sport with which I'm familiar that has no clock is tennis. This might indicate more importance of the Moon for showing the flow of the game, and perhaps we need to give her a longer travel path.

The visiting team bats first, so the home team has the ball first. Interestingly in the early days of professional and semi professional baseball in the 19th century this custom was reversed.

The game officially begins when the umpire, an official, yells "Play ball." Seconds later the pitcher, from the home team, throws the first pitch. So in this sense the pitcher from the home team initiates the action.

To figure out what is what familiarity with the old astrological square charts is helpful. The chart is a square with a square tilted on an angle inside. The tilted square is where baseball gets the word "diamond" to describe the field. The IC is home plate. The DSC is first base. The MC is second base, and the ASC is third base. The idea is to advance the runner, who starts out as a batter, from first to second to third to home plate where he "scores a run." Whoever scores the most runs after 9 innings wins. An inning is complete when both teams have had a turn at bat. - No clock. After this it gets more complicated.

Bases are 90 feet apart. Draw line across the tilted square from the DSC to the ASC (the horizon?) then draw a line from second base to home plate. The point where the lines intersect is the center of the pitcher's mound. This is the spot the pitcher throws from. It is 60' 6" from the IC.

It is a cerebral game of perfect symmetry. Breaking the symmetry leads to runs scored; maintaining the symmetry prevents them. I suspect Libra and Mercury are heavily involved somehow.

The problem is that the World Series is a best of seven championship. Winning one game is not enough. You have to win four. The games are played at both teams' home fields. Seven games means one team will usually play one more home game than the other. This year the first two games are played in San Francisco at the Giants' Stadium. The next three if all are necessary are played at the Texas Rangers' stadium, and the final two, if necessary, are played back in San Francisco. If the teams are geographically close this makes event chart nearly useless. A while back the New York Yankees played the New York Mets in the World Series. The Stadiums are only a few miles apart. The games all started at the same time so the charts, except the Moon were virtually identical every night. I think in cases like this horaries are the way to go.

Can you hate a team? I can. Now I don't wish physical harm on the players, but some teams really get under my skin, and I can enjoy their emotional pain that comes when they lose. They get to enjoy their rather sizable bank accounts. To name a few: The LA Dodgers and San Francisco Giants (baseball), The Green Bay Packers and Dallas Cowboys (football), and I absolutely love beating the Boston Red Sox (baseball again) because I am a life long fan of their arch rivals, the NY Yankees. If you want to see hate, go to the Red Sox web page and read the fan board. Almost all of it is venomous drivel aimed at the Yanks. And it's all based in raw envy (heh).

Ladies, if you want to impress a man and you don't wish to bother learning all the intricacies of the game, take this advice: learn the infield fly rule. That's all you have to do. It is a counter intuitive rule comparable to the "en passant" rule in chess. Don't worry if you don't know what that means. When possible subtly allow him to know you know the rule. He will be seriously impressed. Everything else you can bluff. You see if he knows you know the infield fly rule, he will be afraid you know the game's intricacies better than he does, and he can't let you know that, so he won't challenge you on anything else, yet he will remain impressed. From that point on you just bluff. Nod sagely when he gets all excited watching a game, as if you knew whatever is happening would happen all along. When he shouts "Did you see that?????" Smile sweetly and confidently, and say, "Not bad," as if you've seen better many times. Who knows? He may fall in love with you over this alone.

Tom