Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi all,
I would really like to learn the historical connection between Egyptian astrology and hellenistic astrology, and also a comparison on the differences and similarities. Anyone got any good suggestions or would like to impart some knowledge?!

Thanks!
R.a.

Good afternoon,

To to best of my feeble knowledge, there are alas no papyri of texts of ancient Egyptian astrology (not to be confused with Hellenistic astrology in Egypt) that have survived. Some indications have been gained from tomb and temple art. It is assumed that parts of it were assimilated by Hellenistic astrology that refers for example to the 'Egyptian bounds', to 'Nechepso' and to 'Petosiris'.

One of the best books about Hellenistic astrology currently available is Julius Firmicus Maternus' Mathesis, originally written in Latin in the 4th century CE and published in a complete, commented and footnoted English translation by Mr James H. Holden.

Another one is Claudius Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, often considered the foundation work of Western astrology. Since i have no English translation, perhaps another forum member will recommend one.

Alas, Vettius Valens' books are until now available only in a rough English draft translation by a non-astrologer.

Best regards,

lihin

R.A. wrote:Hi all,
I would really like to learn the historical connection between Egyptian astrology and hellenistic astrology, and also a comparison on the differences and similarities. Anyone got any good suggestions or would like to impart some knowledge?!

Thanks!
R.a.

maybe this site could help you out a bit...??

Astrogirl wrote:

maybe this site could help you out a bit...??

The difficulty here is that the questioner seems to think there is an 'Egyptian astrology' totally distinct from 'Hellenistic astrology'. If we are discussing horoscopic astrology these two terms are not necessarily in contradiction at all. So in some respects this is a false dichotomy.

Bear in mind that after the conquests of Alexander the Great in the late 4th century BCE Greek culture and language spread across Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia and even to central Asian and NW Indian kingdoms. For a period of time Greek became the lingua franca throughout this immense cultural area. So 'hellenistic' culture wasn't restricted to just Greece. Historians describe this period as a 'hellenistic world'. Egypt became part of this hellenistic cultural area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenisti ... stic_world

If we are discussing 'horoscopic astrology' there was considerable interaction between these cultures. For example the Mesoptamian Priest-Astrologer Berossus Is believed to have taken Mesopotamian astrological ideas to the Greek Island of Kos in the 3rd century BCE and established an astrological school there.

Even before the conquests of Alexander Egypt was exposed to astrological ideas from Mesopotamia and Persia. In 525 BCE Egypt was conquered by the Persians so there is likely to have been some Mesopotamian influence on Egyptian constellation myths. Arguing in favour of this, Tamsyn Barton gives an example of what appears to be Mesopotamian influence on the zodiac, which included two signs ? the Balance and the Scorpion, as evidenced in the Dendera Zodiac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berossus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horoscopic_astrology

However, a distinctly horoscopic astrology probably developed in the 2nd or 1st century BCE and the focal point was Alexandria in Egypt. Following the conquest of Alexander there had been considerable Greek settlement in lower Egypt (the Nile delta or north). Hence the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt (which included Cleopatra) was of Macedonian/Greek origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ptolemaic_Egypt

Similarly, the first horoscopic astrologers in Egypt seem to have been the descendants of mostly Greek speaking colonists located in Alexandria. This city, where Alexander was buried, had grown quickly to become Egypt's administrative capital and an intellectual centre.

So in a nutshell early horoscopic astrology was both hellenistic and Egyptian. However, you see some elements of older pre-horoscopic Egyptian traditions from astrologers like Vettius Valens and Hephaistio of Thebes. These seem to rely a lot on the fixed stars and especially Sirius which was pivotal in the Egyptian calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sothic_cycle

Current academic research shows that distinctly Egyptian concepts like the star based decans influenced the development of astrological houses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decans

However, the astrological tradition obviously drew heavily on Mesopotamian ideas. So its probably more accurate to think of the origins of horoscopic astrology as culturally eclectic rather than strictly distinct.

This not to deny there were Egyptian astral ideas focused on fixed stars that preceded the development of horoscopic astrology. However, its highly debateable if can really identify a fully fledged astrology in Egypt prior to the development of horoscopic astrology. Sites such as the Dendera zodiac date from no later than the late 1st century BCE by which time Egypt had been long exposed to Greek and Mesopotamian astrological ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_zodiac

Still, there are some suggestions that older more indigenous Egyptian ideas may have carried on into the period of Egypt as a Roman province.

For example, Micah Ross has discussed some preserved demotic horoscopes that seem to show that the 'House of the Goddess' was assigned to the 10th place from the Ascendant rather than the more conventional 3rd place usually found in Greek astrology. This may well be because the Moon found its joy in this house in hellenistic astrology. However, for the Egyptians the Moon was masculine and identified with the God Thoth. Hence it made much less sense for indigenous Egyptians to assign the 3rd house to the Goddess. However, this outlook doesn't appear typical of hellenistic astrology and none of the horoscopes found in the Greek language have this attribution to the 10th house.

This doesn't necessarily indicate these ideas are older since the demotic language was a later development in Egypt. It seems likely horoscopic astrology was formulated by the descendents of largely Greek colonists in Alexandria. However, as these ideas spread across Egypt indigeous Egyptians may have altered some ideas to suit their own relligious ideas.

Another area which seems to represent a survival of older Egyptian (and Mesopotamian) tradition is the use of constellations in astrology that were not part of the standard Greek constellations. That is rather a full topic in itself so I will simply give a link to a good resource on this here: scroll down to the section headed Sphaera Barbarica.

http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-davi ... 11-14.html

The original questioner was clearly focused on understanding the history not listing astrological texts on hellenistic astrology so I will focus on the former here. In terms of book recommendations I suggest you check out the following books on the history of western astrology which are all excellent:

1 A History of Western Astrology Volume I: The Ancient and Classical Worlds by Nicholas Campion

2 A History of Horoscopic Astrology by James Holden

3 Ancient Astrology by Tamsyn Barton

I suggest starting with Holden's book first as its more straightforward in presentation. Although its much shorter in its coverage of ancient astrology. Campion's book is longer and heavier but he goes into things in considerable detail. Tamysn Barton's book is very good combination of the history, philosophy and practical techniques used in ancient astrology. Holden and Barton are easier to dip into while Campion is a more general historical work.

Mark

Mark wrote:
The difficulty here is that the questioner seems to think there is an 'Egyptian astrology' totally distinct from 'Hellenistic astrology'. If we are discussing horoscopic astrology these two terms are not necessarily in contradiction at all. So in some respects this is a false dichotomy.

Bear in mind that after the conquests of Alexander the Great in the late 4th century BCE Greek culture and language spread across Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia and even to central Asian and NW Indian kingdoms. For a period of time Greek became the lingua franca throughout this immense cultural area. So 'hellenistic' culture wasn't restricted to just Greece. Historians describe this period as a 'hellenistic world'. Egypt became part of this hellenistic cultural area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenisti ... stic_world

If we are discussing 'horoscopic astrology' there was considerable interaction between these cultures. For example the Mesoptamian Priest-Astrologer Berossus Is believed to have taken Mesopotamian astrological ideas to the Greek Island of Kos in the 3rd century BCE and established an astrological school there.

Even before the conquests of Alexander Egypt was exposed to astrological ideas from Mesopotamia and Persia. In 525 BCE Egypt was conquered by the Persians so there is likely to have been some Mesopotamian influence on Egyptian constellation myths. Arguing in favour of this, Tamsyn Barton gives an example of what appears to be Mesopotamian influence on the zodiac, which included two signs ? the Balance and the Scorpion, as evidenced in the Dendera Zodiac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berossus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horoscopic_astrology

However, a distinctly horoscopic astrology probably developed in the 2nd or 1st century BCE and the focal point was Alexandria in Egypt. Following the conquest of Alexander there had been considerable Greek settlement in lower Egypt (the Nile delta or north). Hence the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt (which included Cleopatra) was of Macedonian/Greek origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ptolemaic_Egypt

Similarly, the first horoscopic astrologers in Egypt seem to have been the descendants of mostly Greek speaking colonists located in Alexandria. This city, where Alexander was buried, had grown quickly to become Egypt's administrative capital and an intellectual centre.

So in a nutshell early horoscopic astrology was both hellenistic and Egyptian. However, you see some elements of older pre-horoscopic Egyptian traditions from astrologers like Vettius Valens and Hephaistio of Thebes. These seem to rely a lot on the fixed stars and especially Sirius which was pivotal in the Egyptian calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sothic_cycle

Current academic research shows that distinctly Egyptian concepts like the star based decans influenced the development of astrological houses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decans

However, the astrological tradition obviously drew heavily on Mesopotamian ideas. So its probably more accurate to think of the origins of horoscopic astrology as culturally eclectic rather than strictly distinct.

This not to deny there were Egyptian astral ideas focused on fixed stars that preceded the development of horoscopic astrology. However, its highly debateable if can really identify a fully fledged astrology in Egypt prior to the development of horoscopic astrology. Sites such as the Dendera zodiac date from no later than the late 1st century BCE by which time Egypt had been long exposed to Greek and Mesopotamian astrological ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_zodiac

Still, there are some suggestions that older more indigenous Egyptian ideas may have carried on into the period of Egypt as a Roman province.

For example, Micah Ross has discussed some preserved demotic horoscopes that seem to show that the 'House of the Goddess' was assigned to the 10th place from the Ascendant rather than the more conventional 3rd place usually found in Greek astrology. This may well be because the Moon found its joy in this house in hellenistic astrology. However, for the Egyptians the Moon was masculine and identified with the God Thoth. Hence it made much less sense for indigenous Egyptians to assign the 3rd house to the Goddess. However, this outlook doesn't appear typical of hellenistic astrology and none of the horoscopes found in the Greek language have this attribution to the 10th house.

This doesn't necessarily indicate these ideas are older since the demotic language was a later development in Egypt. It seems likely horoscopic astrology was formulated by the descendents of largely Greek colonists in Alexandria. However, as these ideas spread across Egypt indigeous Egyptians may have altered some ideas to suit their own relligious ideas.

Another area which seems to represent a survival of older Egyptian (and Mesopotamian) tradition is the use of constellations in astrology that were not part of the standard Greek constellations. That is rather a full topic in itself so I will simply give a link to a good resource on this here: scroll down to the section headed Sphaera Barbarica.

http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-davi ... 11-14.html

The original questioner was clearly focused on understanding the history not listing astrological texts on hellenistic astrology so I will focus on the former here. In terms of book recommendations I suggest you check out the following books on the history of western astrology which are all excellent:

1 A History of Western Astrology Volume I: The Ancient and Classical Worlds by Nicholas Campion

2 A History of Horoscopic Astrology by James Holden

3 Ancient Astrology by Tamsyn Barton

I suggest starting with Holden's book first as its more straightforward in presentation. Although its much shorter in its coverage of ancient astrology. Campion's book is longer and heavier but he goes into things in considerable detail. Tamysn Barton's book is very good combination of the history, philosophy and practical techniques used in ancient astrology. Holden and Barton are easier to dip into while Campion is a more general historical work.

Mark

Oh my...you really seem to have a lot knowledge about that. Maybe YOU should go to a print shop and get your own book published on this topic! I am really amazed by your precious ken!!

I've been looking into potential Egyptian contributions to Hellenistic astrology , and as of my last search earlier in the year, there isn't much. You kind of have to piece it together.

Just to tag onto Mark's excellent overview, see some of my later posts on the "third house" thread on the traditional board. Search for the Nechepso thread started by Deborah Houlding, and see her discussion of house origins in Houses: Temples of the Sky.

Joanne Conman is one serious researcher who has looked at Egyptian astrology. She had an article on the Kepler College web site, plus a couple in the academic literature. I can give you the full references if you're interested.

Otto Neugebauer's 1943 article, "Demotic Horoscopes" is probably available via JSTOR.

Clearly the Egyptians had several millenia of star-lore. How much of it made its way into horoscopic astrology is debatable. However, I think if you compare a lot of Egyptian art and narratives showing the passage of the soul after death, you can see a lineage that leads to thematic house contents. The Dendera zodiac is also instructive.

Orion was their Osiris. The star Sirius was their Isis. I think the Great Bear was their Hathor.

Then we have to think in terms of a hybrid Graeco-Egyptian Hermetic body of lore.

Of course, the average client hoped for something more practical, but the Hellenistic astrologers themselves refered to the esoteric Egyptian origins of much of their work. I doubt that there was an actual King Nechepso or priest Petosiris who wrote what was attributed to them, but this kind of talk shows that some of the Greek-language astrologers thought their craft had Egytpian roots.

Waybread wrote:

......but the Hellenistic astrologers themselves refered to the esoteric Egyptian origins of much of their work. I doubt that there was an actual King Nechepso or priest Petosiris who wrote what was attributed to them, but this kind of talk shows that some of the Greek-language astrologers thought their craft had Egytpian roots.

I dont know if you ever got a hold of the Steven Heilen article Waybread? Its pretty much the most detailed piece of research we have available on the subject of Nechepsos and Petosiris at present.

Deborah Houlding did a very useful summary of the article when it came out:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6552

Deborah refers to another important piece of forthcoming research on this intriguing topic which is Kim Ryholt's article in the Journal of Egyptian Archeology under the title ('New Light on the Legendary King Nechepsos of Egypt'). I dont know if this has appeared yet.

http://www.ees.ac.uk/publications/journ ... ology.html

Older back issues are available on JSTOR. I recall you have access to this:

http://ancientworldonline.blogspot.co.u ... ptian.html

Mark

Mark, thanks for your helpful reply.

I still need to look up these materials; hampered not only by my remote location in a small town in the Canadian Rockies (!) but also because some of this research is coming out in limited press-run, one-off conference proceedings or edited volumes that just don't make it to searchable library data bases or library shelves-- even of my most accessible university research libraries. Theoretically these sources are available, even via small-town libraries through Interlibrary Loan, but the process can take months. Then oftentimes print periodicals or the older books don't circulate. I don't mind purchasing materials if I know they will be useful, but sometimes I balk at high prices for reprints of unknown usefulness.

I wrote to one author for a copy, but was asked to purchase the entire conference proceedings! Then some of these authors haven't gone on to academic careers, which makes them more difficult to track.

I still need to comb through CURA, NCGR, and other non-indexed sites, and track down F. Cumont. L'Egypte des Astrologues (Brussels, 1937). I've also searched a lot of picture books and on-line images of Egyptian funeral texts.

Oh, and then the rest of my life occupies huge amounts of time.

Not complaining. Just saying.

I am due for another search of journal articles to see what has been published since the beginning of the year. I will check out Ryholt's article. Fortunately, if it is part of my former university's electronic data base collection, I can download and print it at home.

Just a few sources, in addition to the ones you cited above, that may be of interest. The articles are available via JSTOR unless otherwise noted. My apologies to francophones and germanophones for leaving out the accent marks:

Ancient Egyptian Religion: Book of Gates, Ancient Egypt Online website, www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/book-of-gates.html

HD Betz, The Greek magical papryri in translation, 2nd ed. (Chicago: 1992)

B. Bohleke, In terms of fate: a survey of the indigenous Egyptian contribution to ancient astrology in light of papyrus CtYBR inv 1132 (B), Studien zur Altagyptischen Kulture 23 (1996) 11-46.

W. Budge, ed. Book of the Dead, 2 vols on ancient Egyptian gods

J. Conman, It's about time: ancient Egyptian cosmology Studien zur Altagyptishchen Kultur 31 (2003) 33-71.

-----The Egyptian Origins of Planetary Hypsomata, Discussions in Egyptology 64(2006-09) 7-20

----- Origins of Astrology, Kepler College website, 2010

E. Edson & E. Savage-Smith, An astrologer's map: a relic of late Antiquity, Imago Mundi 52 (2000) 7-29.

Encyclopedia Mythica

S. Hagin, "The Journey to the Duat: The Travels of a Pharoah into the Afterlife,"
http:ksumail.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/WLjourneyToTheDUAT.html

T. deJong & KA Worp, More Greek Horoscopes from Kellis (Dakhleh Oasis) Zeitschrift fur Papyrologie und Epigraphik 137 (2001) 203-214.

M. Lawrence, Hellenistic astrology, Internet encylopdedia of philoscophy, www.iep.utm.edu

AM Lewis, Augustus and his horoscope reconsidered, Phoenix 62(2008) 308-337

GRS Mead, ed Thrice-Greatest Hermes (London: 1964)

O. Neugebauer, Egyptian Planetary Texts, Transactions of the American Philoscophical Society, ns 32 (1942) 209-250

----- Demotic Horoscopes, J. Am. Oriental Soc. 63 (1943) 115-127

-----The Egyptian 'Decans', Vistas in Astronomy 1 (1955)47-51

O. Neugebauer and RA Parker, Two Demotic Horoscopes, J. Egyptian Archaeology 54 (1968) 231-235

O. Neugebauer and G. Saliba, On Greek Numerology Centaurus 31 (1989) 189-206 [on the 'Circle of Petosiris"]

Oxford Classical Dictionary

Oxford Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology

RA Parker, Ancient Egyptian astronomy, Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond 276 (1974) 51-65

D. Pingree, Antiochus and Rhetorius, Classical Philology 27 (1977): 203-223

D. Pingree, "From Alexandria to Baghdad to Byzantium. The transmission of astrology, International Journal of the Classical Tradition 8 (2001) 3-37

Plutarch, Isis and Osiris http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/ERo ... is*/A.html

R Powell, History of Houses, 1996.

JF Quack, Les Mages Egyptianises? remarks on ome surprising points in supposedly Magusean texts, J. Near Eastern Studies 65 (2006) 267-282

JD Ray, Pharoah Nechepso, J Egyptian Arch. 60 (1974) 255-56

M Riley, Theoretical and practical astrology: Ptolemy and his colleagues, Trans. Am Phil. Assoc. 117 (1987) 235-256

-----Science and tradition in Tetrabiblos, Proc. Am. Phil. Soc. 132 (1988)67-84

-----Ptolemy's use of his predecessors' data, Trans Am Phil Accoc 125 (1995) 221-250

Francesca Rochberg, Babylonian Horoscopes Trans. Am. Phil. Soc. 88, 1-3 (1998)

-----The Heavenly Writing (Cambridge: 2004)

"Shai", www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk.shai.htmlThe Stars new perspectives-Decans (Egyptian) www.astrogeographia.org/the_stars/decans/

G. D. Thompson, Early Egyptian constellations: the decans stars, http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-Davi ... 11-18.html

-----I: Early Egyptian Constellations, 19: Northern and southern constellation groups, http:members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page11-19.html

Turner & Coulter, Dictionary of ancient dieties.
K. Volk, Manilius and his intellectual background (Oxford, 2009)

Wells, The Mythology of Nut and the birth of Ra, Studien zur altagyptischen Kulture 19 (1992), 305-321

G. White, Babylonian Star-Lore

Wikipedia: articles on Agathodaemon, Amduat, Denderah zodiac, Mithraism, Petosiris to Nechepso, and much more....

Good morning,

Although historians, summarisers and the like write and sell many book about them, they are in my humble opinion at best a supplement to original works by Hellenistic astrologers themselves. Several good translations into various modern languages, often with informative and erudite comments by translators familiar with astrology, exist. Mr James H. Holden's and Mr Robert Zoller's (Liber Hermetis) English translations are positive examples in the realm of Hellenistic astrology.

Of course knowledge of ancient Greek is very useful.

Hardly surprising, one finds that Hellenistic astrological authors entertained differences of opinion on several important astrological matters. For those seeking to attach themselves to a 'guru', it is perhaps difficult to accept that there was no such thing as 'the one and only true Hellenistic astrology'. Apparently there is no way round the development of one's own mental faculties including powers of judgement and discrimination.

Best regards,

lihin

Lithin wrote:

Although historians, summarisers and the like write and sell many book about them, they are in my humble opinion at best a supplement to original works by Hellenistic astrologers themselves.

Point taken but I dont think the traditional sources is what the questioner was asking about. I took the question as asking how astrology developed historically. That is a different matter from just reading the source texts.

Of course you can get invaluable insights from the primary astrological texts. From the point of view of delineation techniques they are priceless. However, these astrologers are not necessarily the most objective sources to give a view on how astrology developed. Much of that was lost in mythology even for astrologers working in the ancient period. For example, look at the attributions of Firmicus Maternus. Writing in Sicily in the 4th century CE Firmicus was already quite far removed from the early origins of horoscopic astrology. Plus there are lots of other ancient primary sources that give us more detail on how ancient astrology operated. Getting an overall view of all this isn't easy if you just read the source works of the hellenistic astrologers.

Mark

Mark wrote:
Deborah refers to another important piece of forthcoming research on this intriguing topic which is Kim Ryholt's article in the Journal of Egyptian Archeology under the title ('New Light on the Legendary King Nechepsos of Egypt'). I dont know if this has appeared yet.

Mark

http://www.academia.edu/1601667/New_Lig ... s_of_Egypt

margherita

Thanks so much for posting this article!

I think it really shows the value of philology in deciphering the history of astrology.

Just a couple of things I might tag onto this article.

1. Ryholt doesn't actually attribute the origins of astrology to Neko/Necho II or a legendary scribe Petosiris identified as Imenhotep. The point of the article is that the Hellenistic astrologers ascribed such origins. The Greeks and Romans of Antiquity were very fond of attributing to ancient sources knowledge that classical studies scholars have shown couldn't possibly have been produced by the ancient source in question. A big example is Pythagorus.

2. There is no evidence that Neko or Necho II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necho_II actually practiced horoscopic astrology. As a pharoah, however, he would have been deeply indoctrinated into the aspects of Egyptian cultural astronomy relevant to his kingship, notably regarding the soul's passage after death. Neko was known historically (610-595 BC) as a pharoah mentioned in the Bible, for attempting to dig the first Suez canal, and for sending sailors to circumnavigate Africa. So he was probably seen as a wise and innovative king.

While it is possible Necho II received instruction in astrology from the Chaldeans, who had just developed horoscopic astrology around 600 BC, again, there is no evidence so far that this actually happened.

3. Imhotep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep lived around 2600 BC, long before there is any evidence of horoscopic astrology in Egypt. He seems to have been an actual person, known as a sage and physician, who was deified after his death. Legends about him include his father as the god Ptah, his mother as the goddess Sekhmet, or his brother as a deified architect named Amenhotep. The deification in itself indicates that we can't take everything said about Imhotep at face value.

There is a big parallel between Imhotep and the Greek physician Aescelpius,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesclepius who became such a legendary figure that there is doubt that a real mortal actually existed; notably when we consider the parallels between Aesclepias and Imhotep. Aesclepius became known as the god of medicine and healing, with the power to raise the dead. He was immortalized in the constellation Ophiuchus. Possibly there was an actual human physician by the name of Aesclepius, but by the time horoscopic astrology gets developed, Aesclepius was pretty much the entirely divine god of medicine.

There are all kinds of parallels with Aesclepius in Egyptian mythology. The snake handler of Ophiuchus, the physician's symbol of the serpent-entwined staff, the monster snake Apep (probably the constellation Hydra) of Egyptian lore who seeks to destroy the sun, and so on.

The Hermes mentioned by Ryholt could have been an actual person, but there are so many mentions of the god Hermes as assimilated to Thoth in Hellenistic/Egyptian lore that we have to be cautious.

This is why I htink we do need to look to Egyptian mythology, Greek esoteric mystery cults, and experts in philology like Ryholt to try to understand the origins of Hellenistic horoscopic astrology.

The take-home message from Mark's post, that we are looking at a hybrid culture in Ptolemaic Egypt as the foundation for horoscopic astrology is correct.