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Do you guys believe life expectancy analysis gives consistent results? Some charts seem to match with the real life span. I examined Van Goghs chart. He has 10th house Aries Sun but it is unaspected. The Moon is in a macsuline sign so she is not hyleg. It is a waning moon so part of fortune is hyleg. It is in 2 degrees of Aries and it conjuncts Sun and Mars. Sun is the most dignified planet but having no planetry aspects, he would have given 120 years (major) life span. Mars is the closest planet to the axis and the second most dignified planet in the hyleg degree so he seems like alchohoden. Mars in Pisces in the 10th house, in his face and triplicity will give 66(major) years. Mars squares Jupiter-Moon conjunction. Jupiter will take away 12 years and Moon 25 years. So it will make 29 years (66-37). Venus conjuncts Mars. She will add 8 years and it makes 37 (29 + 8 ) Van Gogh died, having committed suicide at 37. I know this technique reveals vitality and suicide is not into that but it clearly gives 37 years. Is it a coincidence?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Van_Gogh,_Vincent

Hello,

Is it a coincidence?

I guess it must be because the same technique might not work at all in other charts.
The reason? Well one of the reasons would be the one you proposed:

... this technique reveals vitality and suicide is not into that ...

The failure of using this technique in other charts (many other charts) is the reason why Lilly did not favour this method in predicting life span. Anyway, the method is actually more like a gaugemeter of life force. Some traditional astrologers actually direct hyleg to pinpoit dangerous or climacteric period of a native, which includes but not necessarily death. However, I don't think suicide is one that they would include as climacteric periods though logically speaking, on does not commit suicide unless one is going through a difficult period and the chart should have astrological indications of suicide. Have you confirmed that Van Gogh has the astro indications of suicide?

astrojin wrote:Have you confirmed that Van Gogh has the astro indications of suicide?

This is a very useful comment and has made me wonder what those would be. I'm not sure where to look for traditional sources... Suicide must surely be a 12th house matter of self-undoing? Here we find the NN and I note that the MC (if birth time correct) is in the degree of the nodes. Also the moon/jupiter conjunction straddles the south node and so is connected to a malefic. I have looked at the whole sign chart using true node at 22 degrees. The Placidus chart uses mean node at 23 degrees for some reason.

But with sun in exultation, venus in rulership, mars in triplicity and jupiter in rulership, I wouldn't have thought this was depressive type of person? Although moon in 6th as AC ruler and peregrine is obviously not a good sign.

PallasAthene wrote: This is a very useful comment and has made me wonder what those would be. I'm not sure where to look for traditional sources... Suicide must surely be a 12th house matter of self-undoing?

Traditional, at least medieval astrology, didn't always look at house rulers in natal. Sometimes they did, but it wasn't the only thing.

Abu Bakr mentions things like if the Sun, Moon, and Venus are in the MC and Saturn aspects them, or lord of the 7th being afflicted, or the lord of the ASC applying to the lord of the 8th, or Saturn and Mars in the 10th and lord of the ASC afflicted with the Moon not aspecting it, and so on.

Basically a mixture of house rulers and planetary configurations.

Jupiter1st -

Can you clarify the source of your length of life methodology? Some traditional sources give luminaries in domicile and exaltation status as hyleg and alcochoden, and that is clearly not the case here, as Van Gogh would have then lived to a ripe old age.

Your choice of Mars as alcochoden seems odd, given that Mars does not aspect Fortuna. I suppose the alternative is to use the Sun, which does not give you the answer you are after. Further, I am not sure why the Moon would take away years.

As Astrojin points out, even the best length of life methods have issues, and here we are dealing with a chart that is probably not very precisely timed. So we have two sources of statistical noise to deal with. If you are interested in this topic, you may wish to start with clearly timed charts to eliminate one possibility of error.

Kind regards,
Nina

Thank you Mithra 6.
In this chart we see that saturn does not aspect any traditional planet.
Yes, Nina, maybe the problem is that it is not an accurate birth time. But it would have to be out by an hour at least if saturn were not to be lord of 7th and 8th?

Are there traditional sources relating to unaspected planets and in this case, malefics? Thanks.

Reading the biography made me wonder about indicators for posthumous fame?

The failure of using this technique in other charts (many other charts) is the reason why Lilly did not favour this method in predicting life span. Anyway, the method is actually more like a gaugemeter of life force. Some traditional astrologers actually direct hyleg to pinpoit dangerous or climacteric period of a native, which includes but not necessarily death. However, I don't think suicide is one that they would include as climacteric periods though logically speaking, on does not commit suicide unless one is going through a difficult period and the chart should have astrological indications of suicide. Have you confirmed that Van Gogh has the astro indications of suicide?

He has Mars and Venus conjunction in Pisces in 10th squaring Jupiter-Moon conjunction in the 6th. Pisces can bring such inclination. I haven't run into any specific aspect though.

I tend to think that every planet has its own period. Once it expires, a crisis may occur. Death is one of them. It has a special meaning all alone, however it can even be less painful than a crisis which don't actually involve death.

Have you run into several charts, native of which die naturally but the astrological life span don't match with the real one?

Can you clarify the source of your length of life methodology? Some traditional sources give luminaries in domicile and exaltation status as hyleg and alcochoden, and that is clearly not the case here, as Van Gogh would have then lived to a ripe old age.

Your choice of Mars as alcochoden seems odd, given that Mars does not aspect Fortuna. I suppose the alternative is to use the Sun, which does not give you the answer you are after. Further, I am not sure why the Moon would take away years.

Mars is in 27 degrees of Pisces and conjuncts part of fortune which is in 2 degrees of Aries. Mars is also the dispozitor of Hyleg. I tend to think that one out of 7 personal planets(Sun-Saturn) should closely give life span. Mars exactly gives 37 years. I've read somewhere that if conditions are not met, closest planet to the axis is taken as alchohoden. However, Mars fulfills the requirements exactly.

Moon will take away years because it squares Mars.

I don't agree that the Moon can take away years and I'm not familiar with any ancient or traditional source who claims that.

Stellarium wrote:I don't agree that the Moon can take away years and I'm not familiar with any ancient or traditional source who claims that.

Moon is in the 6th house. According to the rules she will take away years. Even Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 6th seems to have subtracted years.

[quote="jupiter1st"]Do you guys believe life expectancy analysis gives consistent results? Some charts seem to match with the real life span. I examined Van Goghs chart. He has 10th house Aries Sun but it is unaspected. The Moon is in a macsuline sign so she is not hyleg. It is a waning moon so part of fortune is hyleg. It is in 2 degrees of Aries and it conjuncts Sun and Mars. Sun is the most dignified planet but having no planetry aspects, he would have given 120 years (major) life span. Mars is the closest planet to the axis and the second most dignified planet in the hyleg degree so he seems like alchohoden. Mars in Pisces in the 10th house, in his face and triplicity will give 66(major) years. Mars squares Jupiter-Moon conjunction. Jupiter will take away 12 years and Moon 25 years. So it will make 29 years (66-37). Venus conjuncts Mars. She will add 8 years and it makes 37 (29 + 8 ) Van Gogh died, having committed suicide at 37. I know this technique reveals vitality and suicide is not into that but it clearly gives 37 years. Is it a coincidence?

Hi Jupiter1st

In my experience life expectancy works a lot, but it is not an easy topic. The ancient teachings are sometimes very confused and we have to read a lot to begin to approach the question.
Look, the Sun is in the 10th but basically this is a suicidal chart and suicides charts have meanders, they are not direct.
First: it is not important that the Sun does not have an Alchocoden because the Sun in Aries does not need it: it gives 120 years, but Zoller says that in half the period it happens a crisis. I never saw this kind of thing but in Zoller?s example and now in Van Gogh?s chart ( 57 years).

To know if you can trust the Sun in the 10th you have to take a look at the chart as a whole.
What you see? Mars and Venus are together and they are the more angular and elevated planets.
This kind of thing does not bode well, if you think that Venus is Saturn?s dispositor, and Saturn is the lord of the 8th house.
The Moon enters in the configuration with Jupiter, in the illnesses house, squaring the conjunction Venus/Mars.
The Moon is the lady of the ASC and she fall amiss. And besides that, the Moon " recieves" Saturn by exaltation! The chart tells the story of death more than of life.
It is not a lucky chart to preview long life, isn?t it? Even with Sun exalted, Venus exalted, Jupiter domiciliated: the choreography is bad
It is really interesting that I was absent for a couple of days finishing an essay on suicide and having to deal with lots of deaths ( spooky hu?) ; and when I came back I saw this amazing discussion on a theme I have been working through for more than 3 months!
Thanks for bringing the subject!

Cl?lia