Skyscript Astrology Forum

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Hello All:
I?m sharing the present chart because it arouses some doubts on the choice of the Alchocodem . I know that in this kind of matter doubts are the more frequent thing to happen; anyway I hope it will be a good exercise!
The present chart was presented in an essay that my students got through the internet and they exchanged the material that impressed them a lot! The author chose the Moon as Hyleg, giving her the Moon middle years because she was the almuten of the Sun and because she had dignity of face or decan and added Venus lesser years because she is a benefic.
I was not able to see any method to the author madness! But the years he got were in confomity with facts: the native died after his 66th birthday.
So, I began to prospect what planet would be the Hyleg and the Alchocodem using a " real" traditional method and discarding the Moon since she did not aspect the Hyleg and if she did, she would give only the lesser years, because of her cadency.

Tradition teaches to begin with the Sun or Moon, depending if it is a nocturnal or diurnal nativity, observing if they were in hylegiacal places. If not we have to look at the Part of Fortune, the SAN or the horoskopus.
There is a protocol indicating if some points are more eligible than others, depending if the SAN is conjunctional or preventional.
But I?ll not attain to this kind of detail since the aim of this post is to share some ideas that will not demand to go deep in the above protocols.

We have here a nocturnal nativity, so we begin with the Moon. As she is not in a hylegiacal place we immediately look at the Sun. The Sun is in the 1st house, and he is a candidate to be the Hyleg, provided that some of his rulers aspect him.

According to Ptolemy it is enough to find the Hyleg to predict the moment when the native will die, i.e. when some abcissor cut the life?s point by direction (Ptolemy used ascensional arcs).
The Persian-Arab authors, though, even not refuting the hypothesis that a direction of a malefic to the Hyleg can kill by itself, used to predict life spam through the years given by the Alchocodem, a planet aspecting the Hyleg and with some kind of honor in the Hyleg?s place.

Immediately we see that Jupiter, the exaltation ruler of Cancer, aspects the Sun.
They are in orb by degree and by whole sign. So we should chose Jupiter as Alchocodem.
My doubt is that Saturn, in conjunction with Jupiter, in nearer to the Sun?s degree than Jupiter.
I don?t know what you think but for me this configures a prohibition to the perfection of the aspect. I never read anything like that when choosing the Alchocodem, though.
If I?m right, and the prohibition does work in all the cases, we will have to reject Jupiter and the Sun as Hyleg.
But if I?m wrong, we can use Jupiter as Alchocodem: the years given by Jupiter in a sucedent house and oriental are 45.5, even considering that he is out of sect and peregrine.
But Jupiter is conjunct Saturn, which is peregrine and do not receive Jupiter, so we can subtract from Jupiter?s years the lesser years of Saturn, 30, and we get 15.5 years left.
Mars also squares Jupiter so we have to subtract Mars?s small years: 15. So de native would live only half a year.

Hummm? and if we try to find another Hyleg?

We can try the POF. The POF is in the house of death and it does not bode well for life, but she is in a sucedent house and is aspected by the ruler: Saturn.
I will follow with this kind of reasoning to see where it takes me.

Saturn gives his middle years: 43.5 and he is in conjunction with a fortune, Jupiter, which adds his lesser years: 12. So, until now we have 55.5 years. Mars squares Saturn so we will have to subtract Mars?s lesser years: 15, and we will arrive to 42.5.
This age is very far from 66.5 years, the native?s real life spam.

The ASC or the SAN will not be useful since the SAN is at 13?15? Cancer and we should have to do the same reasoning as we did when picking the Sun. The same happens using the ASC.

As I know the result and I do not know which planets caused death ( and life) I decided to look at the Firdars, Profections and Solar Revolution( the last one not so trusted, because I don?t know where the native was on his birthday) as a kind of support or hint .

I got the following:

The Firdar was Mercury/Mars
Mercury is the ruler of the 12th and he is Venus?s dispositor. Venus is in the 12th.
The native died because a brain tumor. Mars is a planet in Leo, opposing to the Fortune in the 8th. So, if the Fortune in the 8th is the Hyleg, a malefic in bad aspect with the giver of life, especially by opposition can kill.
But the question is not how to justify death, but to justify why the native lived so long and much more than the time allowed by the Alchocodem!

The profection was of 7th house whose ruler is Saturn. So Saturn, the lord of the year, Mars and Mercury are important planets to take into account.
The Solar Revolution is amazing: it shows Capricorn in the 8th, Saturn and Mars in Leo, Venus in Gemini in the 1st house, and the Sun conjunct MercuryRX in Cancer. Conclusion? It was obviously a climateric year, but again: why the native lived so long?

My hypothesis in this case is that Ptolemy was right. If we pick the Sun as Hyleg directing Saturn to the Sun in ascensional arc for the native?s latitude we have approximately:

The ascensional arc for Taurus is 23?16? an Saturn walk already 13? in the sign, which give us 17 ? left in Taurus.
Gemini has the ascensional time of 29?27?.
Cancer has 34? 54?: the Sun is at 23?, so the Sun walked 20? in Cancer.

Summing it up:
17 years +29 years and a half + 20 years we get approximately 66 and a half of years lived. Ergo.

PS:Math is my nemesis, so I hope I did right summing the arcs of time!

I?m waiting for your comments!

Clelia

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Hi Clelia,

I think, that if we consider as hyleg PF, Saturn has the highest dignity (ruler and triplicity ). Saturn is in 10 house ( Alcabitius) , he gives his maximum years. He is not in the hayz :

57 x (4/5) = 45,6y

squaring Mars = - 15y
conjunction of Jupiter = + 12y + 45,5m
Sun sextile = + 19y

In total : 45,6y ? 15y + 12y + 45,5m + 19y = 65,3916y = 65y 4m 22d

Petr

Petr wrote:Hi Clelia,

I think, that if we consider as hyleg PF, Saturn has the highest dignity (ruler and triplicity ). Saturn is in 10 house ( Alcabitius) , he gives his maximum years. He is not in the hayz :

57 x (4/5) = 45,6y

squaring Mars = - 15y
conjunction of Jupiter = + 12y + 45,5m
Sun sextile = + 19y

In total : 45,6y ? 15y + 12y + 45,5m + 19y = 65,3916y = 65y 4m 22d

Petr

Hello Petr!

By whole signs Saturn is in the 11th and by dinamic house for one degree he is in the cusp of the 11th. He is out of sect and peregrine. His celestial nature is weak, even if by quadrants he is in a good house, the 11th. We have to give the years depending on the Alchoden?s strenght in its place, not in the place of the Hyleg, where Saturn has exaltation,rulership and triplicity.
Dorotheus says, and I quoted him in other post, that a planet distant from the cusp of the ASC, ( and I?m using the same rule to de MC) could be considered in the ASC even if it was in the 2nd sign, but not more than 15? degrees away from the cusp!

Saturn is more than 15? far away from the MC, so he has not the MC strenght.


Antonius de Montulmo,"On the Judgment of Nativities", book 2, translated and commented by Robert Hand, suggests that we have to calculate how many degrees the planet is distant from the cusp of the MC ( in the present case) and to sum up with the degrees that he travelled in the house which gives less years. The number of years he actually gives is sought from the above calculation.

Anyway if a planet is not strong in the place he is in and is out of sect he can?t give his maximum years.

Thank you for looking at the chart and for sharing your thoughts!

Clelia

Petr wrote:Hi Clelia,

I think, that if we consider as hyleg PF, Saturn has the highest dignity (ruler and triplicity ). Saturn is in 10 house ( Alcabitius) , he gives his maximum years. He is not in the hayz :

57 x (4/5) = 45,6y

squaring Mars = - 15y
conjunction of Jupiter = + 12y + 45,5m
Sun sextile = + 19y

In total : 45,6y ? 15y + 12y + 45,5m + 19y = 65,3916y = 65y 4m 22d

Petr

Hello Petr!

By whole signs Saturn is in the 11th and by dinamic house for one degree he is in the cusp of the 11th. He is out of sect and peregrine. His celestial nature is weak, even if by quadrants he is in a good house, the 11th. We have to give the years depending on the Alchoden?s strenght in its place, not in the place of the Hyleg, where Saturn has exaltation,rulership and triplicity.
Dorotheus says, and I quoted him in other post, that a planet distant from the cusp of the ASC, ( and I?m using the same rule to de MC) could be considered in the ASC even if it was in the 2nd sign, but not more than 15? degrees away from the cusp!

Saturn is more than 15? far away from the MC, so he has not the MC strenght.


Antonius de Montulmo,"On the Judgment of Nativities", book 2, translated and commented by Robert Hand, suggests that we have to calculate how many degrees the planet is distant from the cusp of the MC ( in the present case) and to sum up with the degrees that he travelled in the house which gives less years. The number of years he actually gives is sought from the above calculation.

Anyway if a planet is not strong in the place he is in and is out of sect he can?t give his maximum years.

Thank you for looking at the chart and for sharing your thoughts!

Clelia

Hello Clelia!

It was thought otherwise.

Hyleg = PF

Candidates for alcocoden : Saturn, Jupiter. Both have the aspect of hyleg.
Saturn has a dignity in the place hyleg : ruler, triplicity
Jupiter : triplicity

Alcocoden = Saturn

Saturn is in a system of house ( Alcabitius) in 10 house.
The problem is, of course, to determine how many gives the Saturn years.
I can take the middle years, because Saturn is far from the cups. I can use the procedure Montulmo and its conditions, or five conditions BenRagel. It is a lot of options, the question is which is the right one.
Quantity years that gives alcocoden determines:

1) the house where is located ( 43,5 ? 57) and
2) only after his cosmic status (sect, combusion, debility, etc.)

The range of years of Saturn may be in the range of about 34 - 46 years.

I use aspects through the sign also. Therefore, I used sextile Sun.

Petr

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quote="Petr"]Hello Clelia!

It was thought otherwise.

Hyleg = PF

Candidates for alcocoden : Saturn, Jupiter. Both have the aspect of hyleg.
Saturn has a dignity in the place hyleg : ruler, triplicity
Jupiter : triplicity

Perhaps Jupiter was the Alchocodem since Jupiter in nearer the aspect with the POF. Remember that the first candidate to Hyleg was the Sun, and I did not accepted it because the result would be zero years and I had the information that the native lived a good time, exactly 66 years and 2 months.

But the Sun is much more fit to be the Hyleg than the Fortune! We are thinking otherwise in an attempt to reach the years that we know the native lived.

Alcocoden = Saturn

Saturn is in a system of house ( Alcabitius) in 10 house.
The problem is, of course, to determine how many gives the Saturn years.
I can take the middle years, because Saturn is far from the cups. I can use the procedure Montulmo and its conditions, or five conditions BenRagel. It is a lot of options, the question is which is the right one.
Quantity years that gives alcocoden determines:

1) the house where is located ( 43,5 ? 57) and
2) only after his cosmic status (sect, combusion, debility, etc.)

The range of years of Saturn may be in the range of about 34 - 46 years.

I use aspects through the sign also. Therefore, I used sextile Sun.

To be fair we should not give to the POF the place of Hyleg, since Jupiter is in between Saturn and POF and Jupiter has not enough dignity, according to some Persian-Arab authors ( I have to see the sources).

But if we turn a blind eye to it due the fact that Saturn has so many and high dignities in Aquarius, the place of POF, let?s Saturn be the alchocodem only for the sake of running out all the chances.

Saturn gives 43.5 years, plus the small years of Jupiter, 12, plus the small years of the Sun, 19, and we get 74 years. Now we will have to subtract the years of Mars, 15 and the years of Mercury since they are in aspect and in orb, so we subtract more 20 years ( Mercury squares Saturn, is under the rays and nest a malefic). Result: 39 years total.

Even using Saturn as angular after all this calculation we get 53 years and the native lived 13 years more.

I begin gradually.

I have to decide:
a) the Greek way
b) the Persian-Arab way
to determine hyleg.

Ptolemy, Valens, Dorotheus gives a hyleg Sun because:

Ptolemy : Sun is less than 25 degrees from Asc .
Valens : Sun is the angular house, Moon is cadent(Antology III).
Dorotheus I : Jupiter apper heliacally in the period of +-7day from birth and birth Sun is in the terms of Jupiter. Jupiter is in angles house(Carmen Astrologicum and Rumen Kolev Greek & Arab Astrology, Hyleg,Alchocoden & Almuten Part I).

Alcocoden is :

Ptolemy = Jupiter, because Jupiter has dignity of exaltation and a therm and and he is in sextile to the Sun.
Valens = Jupiter, because alcocoden is the ruler term hyleg = Jupiter
Dorotheus = Jupiter, because hyleg is Sun and appearing planet = alcocoden (see Kolev) = Jupiter

Dorotheus not the original text. Translation is a very loaded Persian-Arab influence.

I am using the procedure of Persian or Arabic astrologers.
This is a compilation Omar, Alcabitius, Abubakr, IbnEzra, AbenRagel and others.
She gives better results.

For our example.
The Moon is cadent, he can not be hyleg.
Sun is in female quadrant and signs can not be hyleg.
Candidates are Asc, PF, SAN. Sequence varies according to the authors.
Syzygy decision, but the procedures may be different.Chart is conjunctional a SAN in angular house. Most astrologers begin in this event, Asc. The ruler of the Asc (and SAN) is cadent. Jupiter, ruler of exaltation may be a candidate.
PF is in the succedent house.The ruler of the PF is in the angular house (Saturn). He is also the ruler of triplicity. Both planets are fast and oriental.
We select the one that gives more vitality.

Saturn.

Alcocoden gives the most years under AbenRagel:

1)He is at 1, 10, 11, 5 houses ? 57y
2)He is direct and fast ? 57y
3)He is the oriental ? 57y
4)He is hayz. He does not hayz or partially in the sect. He gives low years ? 30y
5)He is the domicile or exaltation or he has two low dignity. He does not fulfill these conditions but not in the detriment or fall. He gives his middle years ? 43,5y.

Total : 57 + 57 + 57 + 30 + 43,5 = 244,5 / 5 = 48,9y

She is many ways, that is correct?
We can not mix Greek and Arab methods.

Mercury is very near the Sun. He is combustion. He has no effect.

Jupiter could be not a bad choice.

Like Clelia at a first sight I would say the Sun, still I could not find any direction- at least at my best, but obviously I could be wrong.

Clelia had 66 with ascensional times, but Ptolemy did not like that method, because for him, we know, planetary speed depends on planets position, it is not steady as in ascensional times.

Jupiter is the planet which controls 4 of aphetical places (not the Pof, at least I don't reverse it), and following Ibn Ezra has the highest score

Moreover there is even a nice deadly direction for 66 years (Ptolemy key) from Saturn, natural malefic and ruler of the 8th
Interesting thread, anyway

margherita

Clelia Romano wrote:
I always took for granted that Ptolemy used to direct the anareta to the place of the hyleg using ascensional times. I?ll have to find out the excert that says so in the 3rd Book of the Tetrabiblos.

The method described in that chapter of Tetrabiblos is different from the Hellenistic one. Ptolemy uses semiarc method.

Anyway I would NOT discard the method you used, it gives 66, so for me it's good enough

steven wrote:I am going to take a lot of convincing to believe Jupiter is the giver of years besieged by both malefics and one those the lord of the 8th and this fellow lived to be in his late 60's.

Steven

Yes! All the problem in the present chart is why he lived so long

And the last aspect of the Sun was a square to Saturn: Saturn is in between Jupiter and the Sun.

I never saw this kind of "cutting off light" as an obstacle to perfect the aspect between alchocodem and Hyleg.
But I imagine that it must happen, since that astrology is only one.

Have some of you ever seen this kind of consideration in the present context?

Clelia

margherita wrote:

Clelia Romano wrote:
I always took for granted that Ptolemy used to direct the anareta to the place of the hyleg using ascensional times. I?ll have to find out the excert that says so in the 3rd Book of the Tetrabiblos.

The method described in that chapter of Tetrabiblos is different from the Hellenistic one. Ptolemy uses semiarc method.

Anyway I would NOT discard the method you used, it gives 66, so for me it's good enough

yes, Margherita, but I want to know what I?m doing: to reach the correct time is not the problem, since as you know the chart came up because it was a puzzle for me. Other astrologer already reached 66 years using the middle years of the Moon

I?m reading here in Book 3, that there are 2 methods and, if I understood it correctly, one when the releaser is between the MC and the horoskopus, and the other when it is between the 7th and MC.
Ptolemy gives more methods to do the releasing after a while: the ascensional times and the hourly times, that have to do with the motion of the sky(PM)

I don?t know if I?m wrong but I understand that he admitted the use of ascensional times.

Clelia