Hi all,


I have published a small article about a method that may have some good mundane astrology uses.

As soon as two or more different places are involved in an event this method can be applied.
The basic idea is to convert compass directions to zodiac degrees.
Then interpret the point for a given place as if it is a planet in the horoscope.

See:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55634521/astrodirections

What do you think?

We want to map compass directions to zodiac signs.There is a logical way to do it:0 Degree of Aries = due East direction.0 Degree of Cancer = South0 Degree of Libra = due West0 Degree of Capricorn = North direction.

Hmmm, are you aware that Capricorn traditionally is south, and cancer north? It is not just transforming a chart into a map...

Traditionally the earth was considered flat too.

0 Capricorn is the winter solstice point, so I associate that with North.

0 Capricorn is the winter solstice point, so I associate that with North.

Yes it is the winter solstice. And you can associate with the north. Or the west for that matter. Or your own house. But, it is the point where the sun has max south declination.

Traditionally the earth was considered flat too.

People ask for feedback, but this is as long as you give them what they want to hear :-)

I was trying to show you a possible critical error in your system, as I think you would want to think about and maybe improve it, but as you seem to have already all figure it out, ok then.

Four Pillars wrote:

0 Capricorn is the winter solstice point, so I associate that with North

Well its up to you. I can see where you are coming from on this. However you are up against a few thousand years of astrological tradition. As Yuzuru points out these associations primarily relate to the position of the Sun in terms of its declination in regards the celestial equator. From a northern hemisphere perspective the Sun is effectively moving 'south' during the winter months in terms of its declination. We can see this literally in the winter months when the Sun rises lower in the sky.

I think this link is a good explanation of traditional directional astrology and why the northern and southern signs are described that way.

http://www.auxmaillesgodefroy.com/cardinal_directions

In particular:

Northern Signs
The signs Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo and Virgo are considered to be Northern Signs, the signs designate the area of the ecliptic where the Sun passes during the Spring and Summer. Since these are the signs of the Zodiac which have the most Daylight, they are considered to be Fortunate.
Northern Signs have a positive declination, +0 at the celestial equator to +90 at the Celestial North Pole.


Southern Signs
The signs Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are considered the be Southern Signs, these signs designate the area of the ecliptic where the Sun passes during the Fall and Winter. Since these are the signs of the Zodiac which have the least Daylight, they are considered to be Unfortunate compared to the Southern Signs.
Southern Signs have a negative declination, negative zero (-0) at the celestial equator to -90 at the Celestial South Pole.

Mark

@yuzuru, @Mark

Something being a tradition doesn't mean it is true.
What you say is right, the Sun goes to Southern declination when it is near Capricorn.
But as we now know it is not the Sun that moves, it is our Earth that tilts more towards the North when the Sun is in Capricorn.
This gives us the impression that Sun goes to the South.
So there are two sides to this coin. My house and my body are more to the North when the Sun is at 0 Cap, and thus the Sun is seen more to the South.
But it is not the Sun that moves, it never goes South or North.
What really happens is Earth more tilted to North at 0 Cap.
A good reason to connect Cap to North.

The old tradition believed Sun moves around the Earth, so they logically connected South to Cap. Both errors naturally go hand in hand.

Something being a tradition doesn't mean it is true.

True. But despite what so many modern astrologers suggest something new, innovative or even idiosyncratic is necessarily true either. If you are going to overturn the apple cart so to speak you need to make a really compelling case.

For example, suppose you became convinced Four Pillar astrology was wrong in relying on 5 elements and should use the western 4 elements. You might be able to argue a coherent case but it would be quite an uphill argument.

The old tradition believed Sun moves around the Earth, so they logically connected South to Cap. Both errors naturally go hand in hand.

I dont agree. Our modern understanding of Heliocentrism hasn't changed the basic geocentric perspective of astrology. Astrology is founded on the symbolic perspective of living on this planet not on the Sun. From a geocentric perspective the analogy still holds even though we now know the earth is orbiting the Sun and one hemisphere is tilting closer or further away from the Sun.

Incidentally, how does your system work in the southern hemisphere where the winter solstice takes place at the opposite time of year in the tropical sign of Cancer?

Mark

Danny, are you aware that astrology still measures the Sun-Earth relationship as if it is the Sun moving around the Earth? In reality there is no fixed, unmoving body in space, so this only a matter of what perspective one chooses to use to take the measurement.

The link below is great for showing celestial cycles using both the heliocentric and geocentric models:

http://dd.dynamicdiagrams.com/wp-conten ... y_2006.swf

(switch between Copernican and Tychonian models to see how both can give the same information in different formats).

I'm not sure about the relevancy the comment "Something being a tradition doesn't mean it is true." We are talking about associations that mainly get used for symbolic purposes, but astrology already has a well known and widely reported system of sign-direction associations which has been taught by respected astrologers with weighty reputations, and this knowledge has been passed down over many centuries of astrological custom and practice. That doesn't make it an objective truth, but I think it gives good reason for astrologers to question the value of a new scheme which directly contradicts traditional knowledge whilst adding no unique or additional selling points.

You might find your own approach more useful of course; in which case good luck to you (but it doesn't make it true).

Hello

Fourpillars wrote:What you say is right, the Sun goes to Southern declination when it is near Capricorn. But as we now know it is not the Sun that moves, it is our Earth that tilts more towards the North when the Sun is in Capricorn. This gives us the impression that Sun goes to the South.

I'm afraid I disagree with your thinking on this point. I don't see it as merely an impression that the Sun goes to the south, or some kind of error that we perceive it as moving -- we are perceiving a real relationship which is unchanging no matter whether the system is geo- or helio-centric.

The ecliptic is the sun's observed path. Whether you put the earth at the centre or the sun at the centre, the sun's observed path is the sun's observed path no matter what. We don't need to think of it as one orbiting the other at all, in fact. We just need to accurately observe and measure the observed positions and the observed changes.

If you are in the northern hemisphere and you therefore tilt away from the Sun in January, it doesn't change which region of the sky you're going to find the sun in when you look up into the sky, or draw a line through you and the earth, and the sun. Since you personally would be tilting away from the Sun you are, in a sense, giving a nod towards the part of the sky which became known as 'Cancer'.

Fourpillars wrote:But it is not the Sun that moves, it never goes South or North.

Again I disagree. It is not a question of movement, it is a question of observational alignment. The movement is the mechanics behind what is observed, not an interpretational or philosophical dependency. Change the mechanics and the Sun-Earth relationship remains the same.

Fourpillars wrote:What really happens is Earth more tilted to North at 0 Cap.

Heliocentrically the Earth is in Cancer when the sun is geocentrically in Capricorn, so surely what matters is whether you are using the sun as the reference point for the compass bearings, or the Earth as the reference point. Since you are using the zodiac, which has the sun's path at its centre, surely the south/north issue needs to take the sun's position as its reference.

Fourpillars wrote:The old tradition believed Sun moves around the Earth, so they logically connected South to Cap. Both errors naturally go hand in hand.

I disagree that observation is based on errors; it's accurate and states reliable data. If you take a telescope outside and point it at the sky, you will use an Earth-centred, local perspective to find your alignments and positions. You won't ask the sun where it thinks something is, because you're not on the sun.

The same if you get a map, a compass, and go hiking. You will use your position as the reference point, and from that central point you will use the alignments around you to navigate. If you try to step outside your own vantage point to something beyond the Earth you will overcomplicate things and probably become lost.

On a slightly tangential note, it was only some people who thought the earth was flat, others thought it was round and measured it as such, and it was only some people who thought the earth was the centre of the universe -- other cultures who practised tropical zodiac geocentric astrology did not think that the earth was the centre at all. It didn't interfere with their practising of it one iota. The two things never had a relationship of dependency, and they still don't.

Regards

H.

Having said all that... and maybe I should have actually said this part first .... I don't at all disagree with someone trying out variations on the systems and symbolism available, so although I disagree with the rationale discussed above, I don't disagree with the actual experimentation itself.

H.

Mark wrote:Astrology is founded on the symbolic perspective of living on this planet not on the Sun.

Exactly my reason why I associate Capricorn with North.
Our planet is tilted to the North when the Sun is in Cap.
My perspective is on the planet.

Mark wrote:Incidentally, how does your system work in the southern hemisphere where the winter solstice takes place at the opposite time of year in the tropical sign of Cancer?

It works just the same. The Southern hemisphere is equally tilted to the North when the Sun is in Cap. They get their summer then because they see the Sun in North.

The tradition to connect Capricorn to South comes from the Declination being South.
But let's not forget that in my astro directions system the Declination is not being used in any way.
Different directions on the globe get mathematically transformed to right ascension, so they can be inserted directly in a horoscope.
There is no tradition that says how to do that.
By connecting North to Capricorn I am going with the planet and against the Sun. Can't have it both ways.
Direction is relative, so it depends on the perspective one choses.

handn wrote:Having said all that... and maybe I should have actually said this part first .... I don't at all disagree with someone trying out variations on the systems and symbolism available, so although I disagree with the rationale discussed above, I don't disagree with the actual experimentation itself.

Good point.

The geocentric horoscope is a sky map.
What I am trying to do in astro directions is taking something from the 'earth map', and use that information in the sky map.
So the question is how to do the transformation.

Thing is that on Earth a lot of things function or appear the opposite as in the sky. Questions of perspective.
E.g. I see the stars in the sky move from East to West, because here on Earth I am turning from West to East.
Directions typically reverse when we consider earth map versus sky map.

The Sun has gone more to the South when it is in Capricorn, but then the Earth has tilted to the North at the same time. Direction is reversed.

So, if I want to use information from the earth map in the sky map, as I am trying in astro directions, then I will have to turn directions over. North is Capricorn on the earth map, it is South in the sky map.
It is complimentary, not contradictory.

See what I mean?