Hi,

I've been doing a little bit of thinking about planets in detriment or fall but who are also in their dignities. In my mind, I have kind of likened it to an army being in enemy territory but in a temporary fort ala the Romans.

It would make sense to me that the planet will still manifest its corrupted traits but with, perhaps, some moments of clarity like a drunk who realises what they are doing for a few brief moments or some periods of time in which the situation is good for the native like a desert traveller at an oasis.

Not being too experienced practically in natal astrology, I was wondering what you all had to add to this kind of positioning?

Hi, Konrad

I remember somebody ( I think it was Steven Birchfield) compared one time that a planet being in its terms, was like a president in a foreign country being in his embassy.

So, in the exile situation, I think that being in its terms will not help the planet that much, as the topic is corruption. But when the planet is in its fall, I believe that the terms would probably be a bigger help.

best regards
Y

Hi Yuzuru,

yes, that's how I see it. I listened to Ben Dykes' lecture in which he spoke of the nature of detriment and fall - detriment being a corruption while fall being an isolation, ignoring or trapping (down a well was the analogy he used). I do suppose that being on sovereign land in a foreign country would help somone who is trapped or being ignored rather than someone who is corrupt.

Could one say then that a planet in Fall but also Term and Triplicity, say Venus, might feel loved only in a particular environment - the home in 4, workplace in 10, religious group in 9 (the embasy of the analogy) - but very uncertain or rejected in the large context of society? That would make sense. Mars might be assertive in a certain group or setting but timid otherwise etc.

Yukionna wrote:Could one say then that a planet in Fall but also Term and Triplicity, say Venus, might feel loved only in a particular environment - the home in 4, workplace in 10, religious group in 9 (the embasy of the analogy) - but very uncertain or rejected in the large context of society? That would make sense. Mars might be assertive in a certain group or setting but timid otherwise etc.

Hi Yukionna,

that doesn't fit in with my understanding of the debilities. If Mars were debilitated, I wouldn't say he would be timid or lacking in assertive action, I would say he is still assertive (he is still Mars after all) but the action would would be of a destructive nature. I get this from the traditional explanations of Mars dignified - a warrior, or leader. Mars debilitated - a blood-letter, or murderer.

Hi Konrad,
I've red that description of debilitated Mars as well, and I can sort of go with the 'destructive' but it does seem a bit over the top to me. Mars in Cancer is in Fall and in Triplicity. Mars is Mars as you said, so there is always something about anger, but I just can't see a knifeslinging thing there. The destructive part may be in the way anger is hold back in certain situations until it builds up to a point where it cannot be suppressed anymore, and then it explodes, doing more damage this way than it normally would if it were in inflammable and fairly spontanious Aries for instance. But then there is the dignity of triplicity and in the first degrees also of term, so where does this come in? I tried to translate the above mentioned analogy (people in a foreign place but within a small group of familiarity and protection) into something I can relate to, because often I find it difficult to really understand what these things mean, how they work out in someone's life. What does actually happen?

So the question is:
is it a matter of Mars' condition being consistently somewhere between nasty and good,
Or: is this a Mars who can be assertive in some situations, and brooding and suppressed (and eventually violent or destructive) in others?
In the case of Venus:
is this a Venus that can love and feels loved in few situations, but rejects and feels rejected in most others?
Or is she sort or lukewarm in between?
I'm probably getting this al wrong, but well, one keeps trying...
Yuki

Yukionna wrote:Hi Konrad,
I've red that description of debilitated Mars as well, and I can sort of go with the 'destructive' but it does seem a bit over the top to me. Mars in Cancer is in Fall and in Triplicity. Mars is Mars as you said, so there is always something about anger, but I just can't see a knifeslinging thing there. The destructive part may be in the way anger is hold back in certain situations until it builds up to a point where it cannot be suppressed anymore, and then it explodes, doing more damage this way than it normally would if it were in inflammable and fairly spontanious Aries for instance. But then there is the dignity of triplicity and in the first degrees also of term, so where does this come in? I tried to translate the above mentioned analogy (people in a foreign place but within a small group of familiarity and protection) into something I can relate to, because often I find it difficult to really understand what these things mean, how they work out in someone's life. What does actually happen?

So the question is:
is it a matter of Mars' condition being consistently somewhere between nasty and good,
Or: is this a Mars who can be assertive in some situations, and brooding and suppressed (and eventually violent or destructive) in others?
In the case of Venus:
is this a Venus that can love and feels loved in few situations, but rejects and feels rejected in most others?
Or is she sort or lukewarm in between?
I'm probably getting this al wrong, but well, one keeps trying...
Yuki

Hi Yukionna,

I don't think you are getting it all wrong, but then I don't know if I'm getting it all right! I just have to go with my interpretation of what I have read.

I think Mars' significations, like all the planets, cannot be generalised. It is wholly dependant on the birth being dirunal/nocturnal, Mars' phase related to the Sun, his house position, his aspects etc. As far as I undestand it, the planets signify Mars-type things or Venus-type things for the houses they occupy and rule. Personally, I don't see the planets as representing the subject of the chart per se but more as descriptions of what this person will encounter during their lives and how it will effect them. So Mars being a "blood-letter" isn't literally someone who enjoys to inflict pain but if it were in the 7th house, it could be argued they would have fairly stormy relationships or partnerships while if it were dignified, maybe some sort of friendly rivalry. Or in the 10th debilitated a butcher, dignified a soldier?

I feel fairly comfortable delineating Mars in Taurus or Saturn in Cancer but a little less so with Mars in the first few degrees of Cancer at night, for example. I might be approaching it incorrectly but I prefer to take apart each individual "cog" and examine it fully before intergrating it into the full machine, so this sort of positioning will bother me for as long as I am unsure of it.

The fact that the older astrologers list Mars in his fall as representing this sort of thing knowing full well that he is also in his triplicity and sometimes in his bounds, leads me to believe that the debility should be interpreted as such regardless of the dignities. Ben Dykes in his FAA lecture states he believes the bounds show the physical expression of the planet. So Venus in the bounds of Mercury, someone who writes fiction, for example. Maybe then Mars will just do "bad" Mars things when in his own bounds in Cancer?

Konrad wrote: I think Mars' significations, like all the planets, cannot be generalised... Personally, I don't see the planets as representing the subject of the chart per se but more as descriptions of what this person will encounter during their lives and how it will effect them....
I might be approaching it incorrectly but I prefer to take apart each individual "cog" and examine it fully before intergrating it into the full machine, so this sort of positioning will bother me for as long as I am unsure of it.

Yes, I agree. Most planets represent the life of the native, not the native him or herself. Maybe it wasn't so clear from my posting, but I did mean 'all other things set aside'.

The fact that the older astrologers list Mars in his fall as representing this sort of thing knowing full well that he is also in his triplicity and sometimes in his bounds, leads me to believe that the debility should be interpreted as such regardless of the dignities.

I find that truly confusing.

Maybe it'be nice to have a chart where Mars is in such a position without being otherwise afflicted or heavily influenced as in a Stellium or burnt, so preferably feral. Just a nice clearcut Mars in Cancer. You wouldn't happen to have one in your collection, would you?

Nah, sorry, I don't

I don't know if it will help but my mars is in Cancer at 23 degrees in my tenth house. It is however also squaring my retrograde Mercury in Libra at 20 degrees in my first house and trining my 18 degree Scorpio Venus. I can post the chart if you want to look at it. My experience is that I have a tendency to (mainly because of the square) not put up with bullshit and speak the unvarnished truth. However (I am a double Libra) I learned at an early age that this hurt people's feelings, so I am much slower to speak up these days. When it comes to talking to people who have hurt my feelings I find I often have to smolder for a bit to figure out what I am feeling and then sort it out so that I can approach it in a more logical way.

I'm not a butcher! Nor have I ever stabbed anyone;)

Hi,

Labalance wrote: I learned at an early age that this hurt people's feelings, so I am much slower to speak up these days. When it comes to talking to people who have hurt my feelings I find I often have to smolder for a bit to figure out what I am feeling and then sort it out so that I can approach it in a more logical way.

smoldering is the expression my friend uses to describe her Mars in Cancer, but as with yours, there's an aspect with Mercury, and in her case an exact square to Saturn, so it's not so easy to tell what's what...
But it's interesting though. You hold back when hurt, or maybe also generally. Would you say that there are groups or situations in your life where you're still pretty fast and assertiv? Mustn't be communication, just some area were you can be bold and fast to act or react..
(I'm still on my 'embassy' line of thinking here.....)

I'm not a butcher! Nor have I ever stabbed anyone;)

Glad to hear it But you can cut with words. That's always a good communication-killer.

My father has Mars in Cancer in the 5th ruling the 8th and with an applying Moon sextile in Virgo right on the DSC. He has a very quick emotional response when angry and reacts emotionally when upset rather than rationally, even though he has 5 planets in Gemini. He has a difficult relationship with most of his 4 daughters, as one might expect with such a difficult Mars in the house of children and a link between its ruler and the 7th house. There were a lot of emotional, cruel fights growing up in our house that likely stemmed from that place in his chart and his unhappiness with his wife (my mother). He was what one would categorize as verbally abusive but never physically (except he once assaulted my mother). He never wanted children, so the analogy about feeling trapped would be correct. He was also in the Navy for a little while and was relieved of his duties fairly quickly (I believe honorably, but he was a bit of a trouble-maker in his youth), so Mars in fall could relate to that as well. I don't see Mars in fall in his chart as a very positive influence anyway, although I may be biased.

In transit, he had a very horrible motorcycle accident while transit Mars in Cancer was on his Mars and square his Venus in Aries in the 1st house (head trauma). Venus was also transiting in Aries and it was a few weeks before his profection year officially brought the 5th house to the ASC (and the 8th ruler). As far as we understand, the accident was from his own negligence, based on police reports, and he had a history of being rather reckless and accident prone. He had permanent brain damage (altered personality) and was in a coma for a week (May 12, 2006). My sisters with Saturn in Cancer now take care of him.

His chart with the noteable transits for the accident, if anyone is interested:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2yxq7at.gif

I remember a thread by Andrew Brevan on Mars in fall, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.