Skyscript Astrology Forum

Heath Ledger's Sun is in the hyleg place but he can not produce alcocoden. Besides the chart seems to be nocturnal. The Moon is hyleg. The triplicity ruler Venus trines her. So she is alcocoden. Venus is exalted but not angular. She will give 45 years. Ancients say south node conjuncting alcocoden within 12 degrees orb subtract one-fourth of alcocoden years. Venus conjuncts south node so we subtract. One-fourth of 45 is 11.25. It makes 33.75 when subtracted. Moon trines alcocoden so she will add 25 years (33.75+25) which makes 58.75. Saturn opposes Venus. Saturn is not dignified so he will subtract 30 years (58.75-30)= 28.75 Heath Ledger died at 29 during his Saturn return.


His Sun and Moon are both dignified and are in the Hyleg places. Unlike Ptolemy's method, a planet can not be both hyleg and alcocoden. If it could, Heath would have lived a very long life. Van Gogh has a similar chart in this sense, which reveals that exalted or domicile Sun/Moon can not be both hyleg and alcocoden. So Ptolemy was either wrong or his remarks were misinterpreted.


Here is the link to his chart.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ledger,_Heath

I don't really think it proves that. Strongly negative directions coupled with dodgy profections and returns can bring an "early" death. I always think of the Hyleg/Alcocoden as a projected vitality, not a prediction of death.

Plus, that chart is only rated as a "C".

Wasn't another chart floating around that gave him a Pisces rising ascendant?...

And another thing we could consider is that there is not a single hylegical place, just an order or priority that may change under certain conditions.

Sun, Moon, pre-natal full or new Moon, ascendant and lot of fortune are the places analogical to life (possibly, the ruler of the rising sign should be included as well).

In that sense, it would be more sensible to consider that the most of these places under attack by malefics (accidental or not) in a given moment, the more likely the occurence of death. The estimation by hyleg is but one single testimony.

jupiter1st wrote:Unlike Ptolemy's method, a planet can not be both hyleg and alcocoden. If it could, Heath would have lived a very long life. Van Gogh has a similar chart in this sense, which reveals that exalted or domicile Sun/Moon can not be both hyleg and alcocoden. So Ptolemy was either wrong or his remarks were misinterpreted.

I have been waiting for someone to point out that the concept of alcochoden does not exist in Ptolemy's method. As the chart stands, the Sun would be hyleg, and the anaeretic direction would probably be hyleg to the trine of Saturn.

Hello All:

I missed you all, but I?m really busy with translations. I saw this thread now and I was not able to resist anymore. It an interesting thread in many aspects.

1st: The chart is C. and I really have many doubts if a powerful Hyleg is not able to live at least 60 years of life. Zoller gives an example of a friend of his, with the Sun in Aries in the first house who died at age 6oth. He raised the hypothesis that when we get 120 years of age because the Sum is in his domicile, we have to pay attention to the half of period. But, for myself I saw in his friend?s chart many problems, healthy problems that could jeopardize the full length of his life.
2nd: Many authors from the Persian Arab period advocates that the Sun in Aries and Leo and the Moon in Taurus and Cancer can be Hyleg and Alchocodem, but, honestly, I don?t remember to have read this kind of orientation in Ptolemy.
3rd: If the native was born with the chart that Jupiter1 pointed out, the chart has many flags pointing to a short life. We have to look to the chart as a whole. Now this is speculation since I don?t know when he was born. But the chart looks like as he was a drug addict: Saturn is in the house of illnesses, conjunct to the node, okay it was the NN, but the problem is that Saturn receives an opposition from Venus. The 6th house,(I think it was Ibn Ezra who said) is the house of vices. Venus in the 12th exalted and badly placed has no power to act. Mars, ruler of the 8th and of the ASC was in the 12th, as well, conjunct to Mercury having power as dispositor of Saturn over the 11th, the future,the 10th, the career: and Saturn is in the 6th house. It is a chart that do not grants a long life, IMO.
I agree with Konrad?s and Marteen points.
Sun and Moon in angles are a good thing, but in longevity we must look to the chart as a whole because the matter is really tricky.
Best regards

Clelia

I don't have a quote, anyway my idea is the Sun at the Ascendant does not bode for the good.

Even Ptolemy in his chapter about the children not reared says that the lights is an angle with a malefic star the native will soon die.

And books on elections always say don't put Sun and the Moon at the Ascendant.

My idea is that the Sun can be a natural malefic and in fact it can be anareta.

margherita

Hello Margherita:-)

I agree for Elections that is not good to put the Moon in the ASC if you do not want changeable things. But if you want thing to change, just use her;-)
As for the Sun I never heard any reference.
Still we are dealing with natal astrology, so back to the chart;-)

I have studied dozen of charts with the Sun in the ASC, in Scorpio, in Sagittarius, in Leo, in Pisces, etc and the natives had lived 60 years or more, depending on the rest of the chart. I don?t think that to have the Sun in the ASC is like to have an accidental malefic, exception made when the Sun is the lord of the 8th and there is no reception between the lord of the ASC and the Sun or there is no benefics aspecting it.
Masha?allah says that the Sun is a fortune and his essence is toward life.

Best

Cl?lia

Hello Clelia, nice to read you again

I agree for Elections that is not good to put the Moon in the ASC if you do not want changeable things. But if you want thing to change, just use her;-)
As for the Sun I never heard any reference.

Ramesey's Astrologia Restaurata: But have a special care in all election you put not the Moon at the Ascendant; for she is an enemy to thereunto; so also is the Sun, for he therein dissolves and undoes what it is accomplished and done.

Still we are dealing with natal astrology, so back to the chart;-)

As I already wrote to someone else in this forum, I don't believe there are different sets of rules for different branches of astrology.

I have studied dozen of charts with the Sun in the ASC, in Scorpio, in Sagittarius, in Leo, in Pisces, etc and the natives had lived 60 years or more, depending on the rest of the chart.

Obviously I agree, it depends on the chart.

Here we have the Sun and the Moon at the angles in square, and the Moon which beholds a malefic (Saturn) by sextile. Sun has no aspects neither with a benefic or malefic, the first aspect he met is the Moon square.

Obviously I could not say in advance "death", but it does not look a so nice chart in my opinion.

margherita

Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490

Stellarium wrote:Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490

Stellarium, may I ask why you say the 8th from fortune is important?

hello Margherita!

I agree for Elections that is not good to put the Moon in the ASC if you do not want changeable things. But if you want thing to change, just use her;-)
As for the Sun I never heard any reference.

Ramesey's Astrologia Restaurata: But have a special care in all election you put not the Moon at the Ascendant; for she is an enemy to thereunto; so also is the Sun, for he therein dissolves and undoes what it is accomplished and done.

Thank you for the quote, Margherita!

Still we are dealing with natal astrology, so back to the chart;-)

As I already wrote to someone else in this forum, I don't believe there are different sets of rules for different branches of astrology.

I agree with you to the point that some ideas that we use in Horary astrology, as for example, the cut of light, translations of light, frustrations, collections, etc, are equally useful for Natal astrology, but there are set of rules in Horary and Electional astrology that are very specific, specially the technical ones.
The purpose of Electional is to choose a beginning, a good time to do a specific thing that perhaps needs the Sun to be in the ASC. An Electional chart that is good for you is not good for all: it depends on your natal chart and we have to compensate the weakness the native has in his natal chart relating to the issue he is asking to elect the time for. The Sun or Moon on the ASC has not to do with vitality or longevity in an Electional chart. If you want to elect a time for a change, for example, to have the Moon in the ASC can be a good thing. As for the Sun, he is the king and the seminal principle of life, so he can?t be related with death. But to be too much near to the king simply turns other planets invisible, not because the king is malefic, but because the planets has not his own real light.

I have studied dozen of charts with the Sun in the ASC, in Scorpio, in Sagittarius, in Leo, in Pisces, etc and the natives had lived 60 years or more, depending on the rest of the chart.

Obviously I agree, it depends on the chart.

Here we have the Sun and the Moon at the angles in square, and the Moon which beholds a malefic (Saturn) by sextile. Sun has no aspects neither with a benefic or malefic, the first aspect he met is the Moon square.

Obviously I could not say in advance "death", but it does not look a so nice chart in my opinion.

For me neither,( and not because the Sun is in the ASC,) but because the 12th house is full and very unfortunate, with the South Node conjunct with Venus in opposition to Saturn. Venus is the ruler of the 7th place, a place of the opposition to life. The lord of the Sun and of the 8th house is in a malefic place, as well, in the 12th.

best wishes

Cl?lia

Hello Stellarium!

I did not get why the Lot of basis taken as an horoskopus has to do with illnesses or drug abuse .
I understand that the Lot of basis is related to the basis of the chart: parental attitudes, what kind of support the native had, etc. And the Lot always falls under the horizon due to its special construction.
Can you enlighten me about that? :-)

Clelia

Stellarium wrote:Quick comment on the chart: Lot of Basis (discussed in detail in another thread) is in Libra ruled by Venus/Pisces/12th - this is the significator of alchohol and drug abuse, because Venus is with Mars and a fallen Mercury, but most of all applies withing 2 degrees to opposition of Saturn in 6th.

Quick recap of what I lok for when analysing the Lot of basis:

The following is considered:
1. Any planet(s) with the lot, the essential nature of the planet, its dignity/debility and the houses it rules.
2. The ruler of the lot, its condition (dignity, house, etc). Planet(s) in the same sign as the ruler, the houses these planets rule.
3. The ruler of the ruler of the lot.
4. Position of the ruler relative to the lot of Fortune (with Fortune, 10 signs from Fortune and 8th from Fortune are most important).
5. Aspects within a 3 degree orb are very important, especially harsh aspects involving the malefics.
6. House and sign position of the lot. Influence is less clear in the examples I have seen. It is supposedly better to have the lot angular for fame/eminence. Regarding sign position, the native may have some characteristics associated with the sign but this could be due to the lot of Basis also being the lot of Eros (desires) as explained by Robert Schmidt in a post down the thread.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490