Good afternoon,

When attempting to research the possible contemporary application of Klaudios Ptolemaios' 'centre of the world' in Tetrabiblos, Book II, near Antioch (today near Iskenderun, Turkey), one finds the following information:

"The Geographic Center of the World

If you've ever wondered where the geographic center of the world's land area is, the coordinates are latitude 34 deg 26 min North and longitude 27 deg 19 min East. This puts it in the eastern Mediterranean Sea about halfway between Athens and Alexandria. In tribute to these centers of ancient Greek civilization, the geographic center of the world's land area will be designated "Mesogeos".

The Mathcad 11 worksheet to determine the location of Mesogeos and a brief technical explanation are attached. The worksheet is set up to automatically download a 10 minute resolution world map. A 5 minute resolution map is available but working with it can strain both system resources and one's patience.

An equal-area projection centered on Mesogeos (red x) follows. The country closest to the antipode of Mesogeos is New Zealand and so, like an object too close to a black hole, it gets cruelly distorted."

Unfortunately, one cannot directly access the original data with the worksheet. The centre is about 9 degrees west and 2 degrees south of Antioch.

Who can assist?

Best regards,

lihin

lihin wrote:
Who can assist?

Best regards,

lihin

Look at this. Here the centre of the world was Rhodes

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient ... s/111.html

Good evening,

Mille grazie, Signora Margherita, for the link. Dicaearchus' map predates Klaudios Ptolomaios by 4.5 centuries but the principle is similar.

Perhaps it might be useful to explain the objective of my research. I should like to find out if and to what extent the principle of mundane astrology applied by Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos, Book II, might be validly applicable today with some adjustment to the 'centre' of the contemporary world. The link above indicates a centre, apparently based on geographic criteria, relatively near that used by Ptolemy.

Best regards,

lihin

Hipparchus (160 BCE-125 BCE) was certainly the first person to give the position of places by latitude and longitude. As he was based in Rhodes he naturally selected it as his prime meridian.

However, in his Geography, Claudius Ptolemy used the Canary Islands. Ptolemy called the Canary islands ''the Fortunate Islands, and was following the usage of Marinus of Tyre. Ptolemy regarded these islands as the western edge of the inhabitable world; he listed the latitude and longitude of places in his Geography.

The use of the Canary islands as the meridian was the most popular location outside the British Empire use of Greenwich and was known as the Ferro Meridian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferro_Meridian

Since the late 19th century, the Prime Meridian at Greenwich has served as the reference line for Greenwich Mean Time and is now the accepted International standard time ( to the ongoing consternation of the French!)

The current measurement is based on a decision made in 1884, which greatly reflected the influence of the British empire and its shipping lines that already had marked the location. All such measurements are arbitrary, and theoretically, the prime meridian could be anywhere on the globe.

?What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators, Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?" So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply "They are merely conventional signs!?
? Lewis Carroll, The Hunting Of The Snark

Mark

Good evening,

An arbitrary determination of the 'centre of the world' would of course not serve an objective mundane astrology. The authors of Mundane Astrology rather summarily dismissed Ptolemy's mundane system and may themselves have been arbitrary in so doing.

The centre mentioned above, however, is supposedly based on objective geographic calculations of the land masses of the entire Earth.

Best regards,

lihin

lihin,

i am curious to know how the "centre of the world" can be anything else other then arbitrary? perhaps you can bring me up to speed how it could be factually based on something else..do you actually think ptolemys 'centre of the world' wasn't arbitrary? thanks

lihin wrote:Good evening,

An arbitrary determination of the 'centre of the world' would of course not serve an objective mundane astrology. The authors of Mundane Astrology rather summarily dismissed Ptolemy's mundane system and may themselves have been arbitrary in so doing.

The centre mentioned above, however, is supposedly based on objective geographic calculations of the land masses of the entire Earth.

Best regards,

lihin

Lihin wrote:

The centre mentioned above, however, is supposedly based on objective geographic calculations of the land masses of the entire Earth.

Interesting approach. I haven't seen this way of attacking the issue before. Although I think the notion of adopting scientific objectivity to something like this is debateable. The notion of an 'objective' astrology seems to be based on an outdated Newtonian paradigm. What is lacking here is any spiritual dimension. The centre of the world wasn't just a case of arithmetical calculation but also had spiritual connotations for example Mecca for Muslims, Jerusalem for Jews and Christians, or Mount Meru for Hindus, Buddhists and Jains.

A 1581 Map depicting Jerusalem as the Centre of the World
Islamic Map with Mecca and Medina at Centre
19th century Burmese Buddhist Map of the Universe with Mount Meru at Centre

Many astrologers have used the Pyramid of Giza as the astrological prime meridian. Not because it was literally the centre of earth in material terms but rather an alleged spiritual epicentre.

Still, I think its interesting this geographical location is close to Gobekli Tepe the first temple known in human history (constructed 11,500 years ago before any towns). I think Gobekli Tepe is close in terms of latitude. I have recently, argued this might make a good candidate for an astrological prime meridian in place of the Pyramid of Giza.

Ancient peoples certainly selected sacred sites where they felt closer to the divine. For example Stonehenge in England or Uluru in Australia. So the 'centre of the world' to ancient cultures had a strongly spiritual dimension.

I dont disparage your approach I just feel that we have a quite different perspective. This reminds me of Blake's picture of Newton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(Blake)

Mark

Good afternoon,

My humble experience has led me to rely little on second hand interpretations of key ancient astrological works. Not only misunderstandings, but attempts at over-simplification and even hidden agendas of the second hand authors often skew the original texts. Klaudios Ptolomaios' Tetrabiblos is an example of such a text. Here is the translation by Professor Frank Robbin of Book II, Section 3, the basis of this thread:

"3. Of the Familiarities between Countries and the Triplicities and Stars.

Now of the four triangular formations recognized in the zodiac, 59 as we have shown above, 13 the one which consists of Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius is northwestern, and is chiefly dominated by Jupiter on account of the north wind, but Mars joins in its government because of the south-west wind. That which is made up of Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn is south-eastern, and again is governed primarily by Venus on account of the south wind, but conjointly by Saturn because of the east wind. The one consisting of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius is north-eastern and is governed primarily by Saturn because of the east wind, and conjointly by Jupiter because of the north wind. The triangle of Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces is south-western and is governed primarily, because of the west wind, by Mars, who is joined by Venus as co?ruler on account of the south wind.

As this is so, and since our inhabited world is divided into four quarters, 14 equal in number to the triangles, and is divided latitudinally by our sea from the Straits of Hercules 15 to the Gulf of Issus and the mountainous ridge adjacent on the east, 16 and by these its southern and northern portions are separated, and in longitude by the Arabian Gulf, the Aegean Sea, 60 the Pontus, 17 and the Lake Maeotis, whereby the eastern and western portions are separated, there arise four quarters, and these agree in position with the triangles. The first quarter lies in the north-west of the whole inhabited world; it embraces Celtic Gaul 18 and we give it the general name Europe. Opposite this is the south-eastern quarter; this includes eastern Ethiopia, 19 which would be called the southern part of Greater Asia. Again, the north-eastern quarter of the whole inhabited world is that which contains Scythia, which likewise is the northern part of Greater Asia; and the quarter opposite this and toward the south-west wind, the quarter of western Ethiopia, is that which we call by the general term Libya.

Again, of each of the aforesaid quarters the parts which are placed closer to the centre of the inhabited world are placed in a contrary fashion with respect to the surrounding quarters, just as are the latter in comparison with the whole world; and since the European quarter lies in the north-west of the whole world, the parts about the centre, which are allied to the opposite angle, obviously are situated in the south-east part of the quarter. The same holds of the other quarters, so that each of them is related to two oppositely situated triangles; 61 for while the other parts are in harmony with the general inclination of the quarter, the portions at the centre [of the world] share in familiarity with the opposite inclination, and, again, of the stars that govern in their own triangles, in all the other domiciles they alone govern, but in the parts about the centre of the world likewise the other group, and Mercury besides, 20 because he is mid-way between and common to the two sects."(bold emphasis added)

One can easily see where the defined centre, a geographic, astronomical-astrological concept, is.

Our Moderator has referred to another kind of centre, a symbolic-mythological one, of which there are examples in each civilisation. In current civilisation one could mention the towering sky-scrapers mostly inhabited by banks. Here underscored are the Wikipedia links to the relevant concepts of

Axis Mundi,

Omphalos and

Lingam (Phallus).

Here is a representation of Mount Kailash, an important symbolic centre:
Nothing excludes a priori a coincidence of both kinds of centres, 'spirit' (Air) and 'matter' (Earth) being two sides of the same coin.

My question in this thread, however, is geophysical and geographic. Are any fellow forum members able to find the original data of land masses that lead to the indication of the centre first mentioned?

Best regards,

lihin

lihin wrote:
My question in this thread, however, is geophysical and geographic. Are any fellow forum members able to find the original data of land masses that lead to the indication of the centre first mentioned?

Best regards,

lihin

anyway it could be that Ptolemy does move a little borders because he follows nationalities and ethnic groups rather than the intersection of parallels and meridians.

margherita

Good evening,

The geographical coordinates of the places determining the axes stated by Klaudios Ptolomaios in Tetrabiblos, Book 2, Section 3, given in Wikipedia are:

Parallel

Straits of Hercules (Gibraltar) 35?58?18?N 5?29?09?W
Gulf of Issus (Iskenderun) 36?34?47?N 35?49?48?E
Mountainous Ridge (Nur Mountains) 36?45?N 36?20?E

Meridian

Arabian Gulf (modern: Red Sea) 22?N 38?E
Aegean Sea (translation? reference?) 39?N 25?E
Pontus (a region) around 41?N, 35? to 39?E)
Lake Maeotis (Sea of Azov) 46?N 37?E

The Aegean Sea seems possibly a misfit. As the ancient Greeks travelled mostly by sea, perhaps Ptolemy had the way to travel north to Lake Maotis in mind. A forum member fluent in ancient Greek might check the translation.

If one excludes the Aegean Sea and takes the means of the coordinates rounded to one minute, one arrives, errors excepted, at the following Ptolemaic Centre of the World:

Latitude 36?26' N
Longitude 37?20' E

Best regards,

lihin

lihin wrote:
If one excludes the Aegean Sea and takes the means of the coordinates rounded to one minute, one arrives, errors excepted, at the following Ptolemaic Centre of the World:

Latitude 36?26' N
Longitude 37?20' E

Best regards,

lihin

As you see Ptolemy's parallel and meridian is not so meridian or parallel to something. There is no intersection as one would aspect talking about a meridian and a parallel which should cross somewhere.....it seems to me Ptolemy follows some national or ethnic borders more than describing a real map divided into precise portions.

margherita

margherita - exactly.. it is arbitrary ala ptolemy..


Latitude 36?26' N
Longitude 37?20' E

while Gobekli Tepe - supposedly the original garden of eden is at:

Latitude: 37.223300N
Longitude: 38.922400E ...


close, but no cigar, lol...

look at kadirli, turkey for those coordinates close to that lihin..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadirli