Skyscript Astrology Forum

this is an old technique.. i haven't used it much, but found morins book 23 very good.. i can't recall exactly what he said about which revolution to use - the one in the present for the year, or the one closest to the events under consideration... i would like to ask others on this board for feedback on which one they would use when a date is somewhere in between, or perhaps much closer to the upcoming solar return chart.. a good case perhaps to use for this example is dave brubeck who i just found out has died earlier today - bless him for all the music and happiness he offered up for the world. his birthday is tomorrow, while he has died today. which solar return would you use? the present one or the one that begins tomorrow? why?

here is a chart with brubeck on the inside and the solar return for 2011 on the outside.. the 2nd one below this first one is for same except sr is for 2011

The case is similar to that one of Marvin Gaye. He died just few hours before his next Solar Return.

He was pronounced dead on 01:01 PM PST (his father shot him at about 11:38 AM) on 1 April 1984, just few hours to his next Solar Return which falls in 14:47h (according to Morinus software) on 1 April 1984, but Janus Software and Delphic Oracle give 09:47 at the morning, which would say that Marvin was already in his 1984 revolution (return).

Here it is dual wheel of his natal chart and the 1983 Revolution: [I tried all possible ways I know, to post this photo in smaller size from Tiny Pic, but it failed].

His SR ASC in natal 8th is quite descriptive, but if the SR from 1984 felt on 09:47 that morning, than we should look at that one. I suppose Janus and Delphic Oracle are more precise than Morinus (since both point out to one time), though Morinus is showing the same ascendant degree as DO and Janus.

thanks tom and Ile,

tom - morin favoured solar returns for the location of the return as well, which for brubeck in this instance might be norwalk conneticut.. i believe that is where he mainly lived.. hard to know for sure as he might have traveled on his birthdate as well which makes the idea of supporting relocated sr's more difficult to follow on public figures..

yes - solar returns were only one part of a series of charts that would give insight on what was in store for a person for the year.. as a side note with regard to this issue of 'TIME' what is your impression of working with primary directions? do events connected with them have to fall after the moment of the exact direction or can they happen before? my understanding is either direction time wise is applicable.. solar fire software is suggesting a primary direction of moon opp mars for march 15 2013 for brubeck..bringing together the moon- ascendant ruler with mars located on the 8th cusp is potent symbology here.. unfortunately i don't have morinus software on this computer to compare notes with solar fire primary directions.. perhaps others could chime in on this detail and the topic of applying time forward or back.. the other chart to consider would be profections, which i continue to have a conversation on in another thread. i think that is the sacred 3 for the trad school as i understand it..

Ile - marvin gaye is a very interesting example.. he died in los angeles.. if you take morins idea of relocating the solar return to the place of the return, the sr would have happened in los angeles prior to his death by a few hours.. what is also interesting to me is the astro data off the relocated solar return for 1983, not 1984 looks to be the most accurate in describing his death.. i say this based off the saturn conjunct midheaven.. saturn is also conjunct pluto which are both opposed by mars. this speaks directly to the idea of murder involving the father.. unfortunately if we use the solar return for 1984 which was in effect given his relocation to los angeles, we can't use the one from 1983 where this symbolism is in effect..

note to forum - i am getting a wide screen here which might be the result of my intial charts posted in this thread.. i don't know how to make the images smaller, but i would if i could!

Hi James, his relocated SR for LA happened even earlier that day, somewhere at 06AM, which gives Taurus rising, instead of Gemini rising for the one in 09AM.

However, in the revolution from 1983 I've posted above, I'm finding more and more astonishing facts of accidents.

Consider this:
His natal Lot of Father is at 01? 51' Leo (Asc + Saturn - Sun), and in the Revolution this falls exactly on the cusp of 6th house which is related to accident (Mars rejoice here)!
Saturn from 8th of the revolution (death) is casting square to the 6th of the revolution and to the natal position of the Lot of Father inside of a degree of orb. This Saturn from 8th of the Revolution falls in 4th division in the nativity!
Saturn rules natal 4th by exaltation, so it has something to do with the Father, i.e. it tells us something about him.

Calculation of the Lot of Father for the Revolution is also falling in 7? Leo, so in 6th, and this 6th division from the Revolution falls in 1st natal division, and this testimony alongside the testimony of SR ASC falling in natal 8th, and SR Ruler (Saturn) is in SR 8th, clearly gives testimony of grievous year.

Now, if he happened to enter the new revolution that morning, then I guess that the influences of the two revolutions are somehow commingled in that day (since it happened one day earlier than his actual birthday), and this is probably something which we need to investigate further as a possible crisis period where the handing over and taking over of the new influences is happening...

P.S. Just to add a few things I've already examined in my article on his death I've posted on my blog.
He was in Saturn/Sun Firdaria, and this is something which Valens would not like to see. Why? Because the ruler of the Fortune and the ruler of the 8th sign from the Fortune are Destroying each other. And if they happens to be in the same sign, then this is one of the indications for violent death.
Valens gives a couple of such examples in his Anthology.

In his nativity Sun and Saturn are mutual destroyers and they happens to be in same sign above on the mid-heaven.
This is why, having them ruling some period is extremely dangerous period, taking in account the further testimonies of the Revolution.

Edit:
Now, maybe not all would agree with me, since having Jupiter as LOY in its own sect, in its own sign, would not be a bad thing in itself. But look at the opposition he makes with the ruler of the chart (Marvin?) in Virgo (the sign of Jupiter's detriment). In my opinion, I would put it this way:
"Since Jupiter is 3rd triplicity ruler of the 4th house, and since he makes opposition to the ascendant's ruler [Moon], there will be tension between the native and the father, toward the end of his life".

I think this is a good testimony of how the triplicity lords of the houses work in timing events. If we go with the quadrant timing testimonies, Jupiter falling from MC would also give indications for event happening in the native's 40's.
This doesn't indicate the death per se, but in my opinion, the tension between the father and the son.

Edit 2:

I found another thing which is astonishing.
In the Appendix C of his translation to Abu Ma'shar's Solar Revolutions, from the series of Persian Nativities III, Ben Dykes translated few aphorisms from the Centiloquy of pseudo-Ptolemy alongside with commentaries of Al-Ridwan, where the Aphorism 24 says:

"An eclipse of the Luminaries in the angles of nativities or the revolutions of years impedes according to the nature of the sign in which the eclipse comes to be: namely according to the house"

And Al-Ridwan comments:

"His intention is that as Sun and Moon, if either of them is being eclipsed in the angle of a human nativity, or in the angles of his revolutions of years, something to shudder at will reach him in the place which belongs to that sign: for example, if it was the angle of the house of the kingdom, it will be in[his] kingdom; but if it were the angle of the house of life, it will be in his body. And speak in the rest of the angles according to this way, except that angles of revolutions are easier than the angles of nativities."

[p.209]

Solar Eclipse happened on 30 May 1984, just 2 days before the murder and his Solar Revolution 'birthday', in 9? Gemini.
Now, without going into the technique of converting the actual length of the eclipse in time, and just taking the eclipse degree, we would see that falls just 2 degrees from the IC in the Revolution from the 1983, and in this same sign as first sign or sign of the ascendant in the next 1984 revolution.

The text says:
"impedes according to the nature of the sign in which the eclipse comes to be: namely according to the house".
Abu Ma'shar says for the double bodied signs (Gemini), that "intensifies the impediments", and 4th house is clearly showing of what kind of "impediments" the year is talking about: father/family/home. Gemini is human sign, so impediment from human.
If we would have judged this chart beforehand, I'm sure we would not find: "this person will be killed by his father", but we could have formed something of this sort:
"The year us dangerous for native's body and well-being (SR ASC in native 8th [and all other indications explained above]. Toward the end of the revolution [eclipse point] there will be some impediments related to the home, family or the father [eclipse in 4th of the revolution, and all other things explained above]. Danger may come from another human being, related to arguments inside the home [Gemini air sign, communication and speaking related problems. Actually, there was an argumentative fight between his father and mother, and Marvin went to defend his mother from already physically abusive father, when at some point Marvin tried to physically push his father away. This probably crushed his father's ego and in a fury of rage he get into Marvin's room and shot him immediately after the fight.] [and etc.]

This is post factum, but I like to exercise in such way of phrasings.

This an extension of a solar return in that it is a progressed lunar return from that solar return.

This is Marvin Gaye's 1983 progressed demi-solar.

Good morning,

For those perhaps still unfamiliar with traditional views of solar revolutions and their connexions to other predictive techniques, one might well recommend the 2nd century Hegira celebrated Persian astronomer-astrologer Abu Ma'shar Ja'far bin Muhammad al-Balkhi's basic, essential work

On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities

with an excellent introduction and footnotes by the translator, Professor Dr Benjamin Dykes.

Best regards,

lihin

have to race off here again, but will comment on others posts later.. meanwhile, here is a chart showing the zodiacal primary directions with saturn direct to ascendant sept 2 2012 for brubecks chart..

thanks everyone for sharing!

hi Ile

i like your website and your enthusiasm for astrology! what kind of conclusion would you make regarding whether one use the following solar return, or that it has to be the present one? what do you think of relocated solar returns? do you think it is better to relocate or work from the place of birth only? which one would you rely most heavily for with marvin gaye in particular since this is also the example your used on your website?

hi unique astrology

interesting observations with a format i am not familiar with. my problem which is more general in nature and not aimed at you in particular is how astrology seems to have many symbolic connections to events thru numerous different techniques even when the charts are wrong, let alone with they are correct to the point i question much of what i read and see when someone is working to support a particular technique or method for verifying the validity of astrology generally.. do you use this technique for predictive purposes as a stand alone technique, or do you combine it with other tools in some order? if so, what are the other tools you use most frequently?

hi lihin,

if you go to Ile's website, you will note he is a big fan of the translated book that you make note of as well.. it has only come out very recently - 2010.. have you read it and if so, what is the most significant learning experience you got from it that you can share with us here? thanks!

Lee Lehman gives us the benefit of her study of the ancient texts in "Classical Solar Returns" (Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 2012, ISBN 978-0-7643-4100-7)

Lee goes through the principles in her usual direct and accessible style, then gives about a million examples from the lives of the great and the good. A good present for an astrologer with a birthday coming up!

Geoffrey

hi geoffrey,

the fellow at astro books of america pans lehmans book for his own peculiar reasons which may not be fair. apparently her book is influenced by gadburys "The Nativity of the Late King Charles".. the wessex astrologer bookshop published a reprint of this book in 2011 which he also goes on to pan.. have you read a version of this book as well? apparently it covers solar returns on king charles quite extensively.. thanks - james