Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi all,

This morning I'm comparing two interesting charts in regard to the social status, so I want to share them with you.

The charts are of two friends coming from a poor life circumstances and one rising above them [chart 2], while the other is still struggling in the lower realms of the social hierarchy [chart 1].
As you probably already noticed, both have Aquarius rising, and both have Saturn in exaltation in Libra! This is great, to have the lord of the ascendant in great essential dignity, it shows that a person can go through the life with having more strength and control over the every kind of circumstances.

But! Notice how the Saturn in the chart 1 is in 8th division, showing poor life circumstances, anxiety, hard life and etc. Having Saturn exalted there, and ruler of the nativity, shows that this guy have strengths to go through them, especially because it is not 8th sign, and especially because it is Jupiter here, the greater benefic. This person will get through the difficulties, but not as much as the chart 2 which is shown by several indications as I will point them out later.

Chart 2 has Saturn also in Libra but in 9th division pertaining to authority, success in education (notice that Saturn is diurnal planet and in good zodiacal shape) and all other 9th house stuff, which is far better then the 8th, even though it is cadent.

The person from chart 2 is academy graduated [I don't know if I use the right terminology], and the person from the chart 1 doesn't even have high-school graduation.

Now, if if we look at whole-sign houses, Saturn exalted in 9th alongside Jupiter and Venus in her own sign, wouldn't give great success in education? On the other side, Saturn exalted in the 2nd chart, is with the malefic contrary to the sect in favor, Mars, who is also debilitated!

It is not my intention here to fight with those who use whole-sign houses, I just try to make my case why I still find divisions useful. I'm sure, those who use WS will find other testimonies here for what I've just said about the education of these two persons.

This kind of examples are giving me the cents I need not to give up the house divisions in substitution for using whole sign houses only.
Sure, there are more indications in these charts for the things said as we will point out.

If you look into the Part of Fortune of both persons, we would find it succedent in 2nd but cadent in 3rd house, according to the whole signs.
In second chart is is in 9th division but in 10th sign alongside Jupiter who is of the sect and rules 11th of patron friends, those who assist someone in his career. Notice also that Venus as ruler of Spirit and Exaltation [which is on a stake in 4th sign] is on Ascendant, this guy is a singer.

Jupiter, the greater benefic, being with the fortune, signifies that this guy will be helped from a friends and patrons of Jupiterian type, who are well situated financially, magnates, and they will assist him his career [notice that MC falls in 11th sign too].

Robert Schmidt in "Facets of Fate" says:

11th ? That which is conducive to the native's action. Planets in this place move away from the immediate context of the 10th and the native's action, but are referred back to it by the diurnal motion. The motion away from the Midheaven symbolizes the solicitation or petitioning of others for purposes that will be conducive to the native's action, or the introductions and recommendations of him made to others. Accordingly, the 11th signifies the patronage, protection, gifts, and favours that the native receives to facilitate his endeavours; also, the authority or preferment granted him (not the authority over him, which is a matter of the 9th) to facilitate what he hopes to accomplish. If the native happens to be a slave, this place signifies his emancipation, giving him freedom of action. The theme of friendship, especially friendships and alliances with superior persons, also belongs to the 11th insofar as such friendships assist the native in the performance of his work. Thus, the 11th does not deal with the direct consequences of the native's actions, but the pre-conditions that make his work possible. Children also belong to this house insofar as they may assist their parents in their work (particularly if the native pursues some trade for a living), and may take over this work after their parents and help continue it or bring it to completion; they may also contribute to the reputation of the native. [mine underline]

This is a real gem!

Jupiter, as a benefic of the sect, elevated up in the heaven, with the Fortune and ruling benefic 11th house, where MC happens to be situated, denotes assist from reach men and patrons to his career, actions and work, in short, to his success [fortune].

The other guy from chart 1, just don't have that.
His Spirit and MC also falls in 11th, but Jupiter is in 8th division which is a subject of anxieties. And this guy was helped by friends too, especially by the one of the chart 2, but his social status is still lower, since he has no proper education and talents to succeed above as the other guy has.

So, I think we need to look at the charts in a coherent way, to gain a holistic approach. If person doesn't have a proper education, nor certain gift of talents, it is most likely that he would not succeed above average.

Furthermore, the second guy has Mercury on the ascendant and received by exalted lord of 1st up in elevation. This guy is a hard worker and cleverly knows how to get most out of life, this is his character, this is part of his success.

His chart shows mobility from lower status of the parents [both luminaries cadent] into success through hard work [Saturn] cleverness and good negotiations [Mercury], and patronage of friends and reach people [Jupiter] who will assist him in his career.

I think I had more things to add, but I'm in a hurry right now. Will come later to add few more things.

Well,I have Mercury,ASC ruler,conjunct Saturn in 9th in both house systems and university has always been a struggle(no patience)
I think two cases cannot tell much

hi Ile,

thanks for sharing. good stuff.. here are a few things i see..

the first chart has a western hemisphere emphasis, suggesting his fate is in others hands to a much greater degree then chart 2.. technically speaking chart 1 has mars in an angle, or on a pivot - the descendant, while chart 1 has venus/mercury on the ascendant while jupiter squares onto the ascendant axis directly as well.. the later would be considered much more favourable then the former all on the basis of these observations as i see it.
both charts are focused on the upper hemisphere which seems to have more of a concern for 'social status' which strikes me like a 10th house/saturn type focus symbolically speaking..

regarding jupiter and the 11th house and benefiting from one's friends.. i recall reading valens where he talks about the part of fortune and using the pof as a basis for looking at how planets connect to it in a manner similar to making it the ascendant.. one looks for the ruler of the pof to see what house it lands in making the pof the new ascendant..

in chart one the pof in aries, puts the ruler in the 5th house - favourable, with venus, jupiter and saturn in the pof 7th house, which i think is positive for the most part as well . chart 2 has the pof in scorpio conjunct jupiter - favourable in itself, but with its ruler mars in the 12th house which would be considered unfavourable as i understand these ideas.. it is a different level of interaction with the pof i suppose.. i haven't worked with it too much but perhaps others have who can comment here.. it would seem at this point in these 2 folks lives, things are working out better for chart 2 then chart 1.. i wonder what it will look like in another 30 years or if it will change much?

damon wrote:Well,I have Mercury,ASC ruler,conjunct Saturn in 9th in both house systems and university has always been a struggle(no patience)
I think two cases cannot tell much

Hi Damon,

With Saturn can not be smooth going no matter how good is his essential dignity. This is why I stressed in several occasions the keyword: "hard-work".
He had problems in the university, but he overcame them with his shrewdness [Mercury] and hard working [Saturn].

Another thing I noticed in my practice is that planets in their exaltation does not bring things into your lap. They will make you to work in order to get, but you will get eventually [if the accidental state is not really awful].

the first chart has a western hemisphere emphasis, suggesting his fate is in others hands to a much greater degree then chart 2.. technically speaking chart 1 has mars in an angle, or on a pivot - the descendant, while chart 1 has venus/mercury on the ascendant while jupiter squares onto the ascendant axis directly as well.. the later would be considered much more favourable then the former all on the basis of these observations as i see it.
both charts are focused on the upper hemisphere which seems to have more of a concern for 'social status' which strikes me like a 10th house/saturn type focus symbolically speaking..

Hi James,

I like this general approach to the delineation.
Indeed, the first person is oriented toward being of service to others, and people around him often calls him "the helper", or "the one who is always giving his hand to help". This is said in regard of the need of physical work help. The second person is more oriented toward self, his goals and ideals, his ambitions.

regarding jupiter and the 11th house and benefiting from one's friends.. i recall reading valens where he talks about the part of fortune and using the pof as a basis for looking at how planets connect to it in a manner similar to making it the ascendant.. one looks for the ruler of the pof to see what house it lands in making the pof the new ascendant..

Yes, this is why I delineate Jupiter with Fortune as important. This is similar like having Jupiter on the ascendant of the chart of Fortune.
Sure, it would be great to have ruler in 10th of fortune. But having Jupiter conjunct Fortune is not small thing either, especially when Jupiter happens to rule such a vital and good places as 10th and 11th.

He brings with him his determination by rulership, that is, that of Good Spirit, Good Daimon, Unexpected Good Luck (11th) and etc. If Jupiter happened to rule 12th, he would have been far more problematic to the Fortune; because, when Jupiter would happen to rule the times, he would bring his accidental determinations with him, and would bring troubles and bad spirit [bad luck] (12th) into the Fortunes of this man.

Edit:
When we are at the determination by rulership, then, we are supposed to ask, why Saturn as ruler of the bad place (12th) didn't bring bad things in relation to the 9th house where is determined to by placement?

The thing is that he had problems, he had "unexpected bad luck" in relation to the studies at university, indeed, in to the enrolling as well.
But, as I said earlier, we need to weight the things in the chart, because life is multilayered. Saturn is ruler of 12th, but he is also ruler of 1st AND 9th by exaltation and is in its own place of exaltation, being in the sect, and placement is stronger then rulership, especially when as in this case, Saturn is also ruler of the place where he is.
So, he would bring problems and unexpected secret attacks [12th], but he has the strength needed to overcome them, and he has luck [Jupiter on Fortune as ruler of 11th] to rise above them.

Edit 2:
Another thing comes to my mind. Sun represents his secret enemies by its placement in 12th [also, open enemies by rulership of 7th], but notice how Saturn is overcoming Sun from the place of its own exaltation [and lets not forget, ruler of the ascendant], which shows that he will rise above the enemies and troubles they bring to him, in my opinion.

BTW I forgot to mention that the 2nd person is typical Go and Getter person.

I believe the difference in reputation may be attributable to the 1st chart having Moon in Scorpio in the 10th house. Mars is out of sect in the 1st chart but he has dignity in the 7th. The 2nd chart shows Fortune in the 10th (status) a placement commonly found in famous charts, and Fortune is also conjunct the greater benefic. I think the Moon in Scorpio in the house of status may be causing a good portion of the struggle.

I just found this quote from Ptolemy which happens to fit the second chart:

Again, when two planets are found to rule action, if Mercury and Venus take the rulership, they bring about action expressed by the arts of the Muses, musical instruments, melodies, or poems, and rhythm, particularly when they have exchanged places. For they produce workers in the theatre, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, members of the chorus, makers of strings, painters, dancers, weavers, and wax-moulders. and again, if Saturn testifies to them, he produces those in the aforesaid callings, as well as dealers in feminine finery. If Jupiter testifies, he produces lawyers, supervisors of counting houses, public officers, teachers of children, leaders of the populace.(IV.4)

To add a few things.

By noticing the Airy ascendant in the two charts we can imagine that life of both persons will be oriented toward constant Movement.
This is very true. They both move a lot and they try to Act upon the life events, instead of being effected by life, as is most the case with watery signs on ascendant.

Second person goes all out for Authority: Saturn as ruler of Asc exalted in 9th! He travels a lot and is in constant movement toward Achievement. He is Go and Getter, Opportunist, desire for becoming Great and notable [key word here: gaining Power].

First person is moving through the Life's Difficulties (8th house) successfully (exaltation) but they are still, difficulties.

Second person is often in the right place in the right time, the first person almost in contrary.
Second person has Lot of Fortune on a stake from the ascendant, as I said, alongside Greater benefic, with both Malefics turned away.

It is true that Ruler of Fortune is not on a stake from Fortune, but still, it is a good and prosperous chart. To be clear, he is yet not a milliner, nor a rich man. In the country where he lives, being a musician is not equal with making good money. But he has great ambitions for achievement across the boarders and is still young.

Furthermore, he has Venus as ruler of Exaltation and Spirit (also on a stake) on a stake from Fortune and upon the ascendant sign.

Basis is in 10th from Fortune, so also on a stake.
It is clearly more brighter chart.

So, the primary motivation for achieving happiness in life through Movement in goal to achieve Authority, in the case of chart 2, will be achieved because of several reasons:
He has ruler of Asc - Saturn in exaltation [through hard work, but will achieve].
He has good Basis of the nativity in regard of Prosperity, so life events would flow more easily and opportunities will be present in front of him.
He has good Mercury in first house which assist with cleverness and merchandise abilities.

The General Basis of the nativity of chart 1, is weaker. Fate has presented to him life events filled with difficulty, going through the misery of life. He will succeed to get above that, because Saturn aspects the Ascendant and is in exaltation [through hard work, but he will succeed].
There are benefics in the 7th from Fortune, so going abroad can bring to him happiness [and indeed, he went in a few occasions].
The flow of events and opportunities are not so easily thrown in front of him as in the case 2 [Lot is cadent from ascendant's sign].

Ile wrote:

damon wrote:Well,I have Mercury,ASC ruler,conjunct Saturn in 9th in both house systems and university has always been a struggle(no patience)
I think two cases cannot tell much

Hi Damon,

With Saturn can not be smooth going no matter how good is his essential dignity. This is why I stressed in several occasions the keyword: "hard-work".
He had problems in the university, but he overcame them with his shrewdness [Mercury] and hard working [Saturn].

Another thing I noticed in my practice is that planets in their exaltation does not bring things into your lap. They will make you to work in order to get, but you will get eventually [if the accidental state is not really awful].

the first chart has a western hemisphere emphasis, suggesting his fate is in others hands to a much greater degree then chart 2.. technically speaking chart 1 has mars in an angle, or on a pivot - the descendant, while chart 1 has venus/mercury on the ascendant while jupiter squares onto the ascendant axis directly as well.. the later would be considered much more favourable then the former all on the basis of these observations as i see it.
both charts are focused on the upper hemisphere which seems to have more of a concern for 'social status' which strikes me like a 10th house/saturn type focus symbolically speaking..

Hi James,

I like this general approach to the delineation.
Indeed, the first person is oriented toward being of service to others, and people around him often calls him "the helper", or "the one who is always giving his hand to help". This is said in regard of the need of physical work help. The second person is more oriented toward self, his goals and ideals, his ambitions.

regarding jupiter and the 11th house and benefiting from one's friends.. i recall reading valens where he talks about the part of fortune and using the pof as a basis for looking at how planets connect to it in a manner similar to making it the ascendant.. one looks for the ruler of the pof to see what house it lands in making the pof the new ascendant..

Yes, this is why I delineate Jupiter with Fortune as important. This is similar like having Jupiter on the ascendant of the chart of Fortune.
Sure, it would be great to have ruler in 10th of fortune. But having Jupiter conjunct Fortune is not small thing either, especially when Jupiter happens to rule such a vital and good places as 10th and 11th.

He brings with him his determination by rulership, that is, that of Good Spirit, Good Daimon, Unexpected Good Luck (11th) and etc. If Jupiter happened to rule 12th, he would have been far more problematic to the Fortune; because, when Jupiter would happen to rule the times, he would bring his accidental determinations with him, and would bring troubles and bad spirit [bad luck] (12th) into the Fortunes of this man.

Edit:
When we are at the determination by rulership, then, we are supposed to ask, why Saturn as ruler of the bad place (12th) didn't bring bad things in relation to the 9th house where is determined to by placement?

The thing is that he had problems, he had "unexpected bad luck" in relation to the studies at university, indeed, in to the enrolling as well.
But, as I said earlier, we need to weight the things in the chart, because life is multilayered. Saturn is ruler of 12th, but he is also ruler of 1st AND 9th by exaltation and is in its own place of exaltation, being in the sect, and placement is stronger then rulership, especially when as in this case, Saturn is also ruler of the place where he is.
So, he would bring problems and unexpected secret attacks [12th], but he has the strength needed to overcome them, and he has luck [Jupiter on Fortune as ruler of 11th] to rise above them.

Edit 2:
Another thing comes to my mind. Sun represents his secret enemies by its placement in 12th [also, open enemies by rulership of 7th], but notice how Saturn is overcoming Sun from the place of its own exaltation [and lets not forget, ruler of the ascendant], which shows that he will rise above the enemies and troubles they bring to him, in my opinion.

BTW I forgot to mention that the 2nd person is typical Go and Getter person.

Hi Ile

What if the ASC ruler were Mercury in 9th? Would he looking for authority too? It is the first time I hear the 9th being referred as house of authority
thanks

damon wrote: Hi Ile
What if the ASC ruler were Mercury in 9th? Would he looking for authority too?It is the first time I hear the 9th being referred as house of authority
thanks

Probably, but not through building a structure as Saturn does, but through speaking, writing, information and etc.
Saturn itself is authoritative planet, it is the furthest planet and a superior planet, symbolism is that of "Authority over".

Well, 9th is the Place of God who is the greatest authority, at least it was so in older times. Valens says that "the 9th gives the signs for the father", because in those times, the Father was the Head of the family, there was a Father of the clan and etc. The Father was the one who decided over the house matters, and all others would need to come to him in order to take blessing for whatever they wanted to do or undertake.

For the Hellenistic Astrologers 9th was place of Kings and Sovereignty

Robert Schmidt in Facets of Fate says:

9th ? What guides or leads the native's actions. Here the original 10th-place meaning of praxis, passing over or traveling to a destination, predominates, but with the special sense of going somewhere as a spectator (we might almost say, as a tourist). The Greek word for a person who goes somewhere as a spectator was the ros,which originally meant a person who was sent to consult an oracle. Later, the Greek verb the rein,formed from the ros, came to mean any act of spectating, beholding, or contemplating, and, so conceptualized, could be applied to the fundamental theoretical activity of the
philosopher. So, the fundamental 9th-place meanings of travel, philosophy, and the oracular are all beautifully joined in the Greek word the rein. By extension, leaving home to become a member of a
group joined together for the purpose of religious worship or philosophical study would account for the notion of community and friendship also associated with this place (the members of Plato's Academy
called each other "friends"). Unlike the 6th and 12th, the cadency of the 9th has a positive expression, since the road to wisdom is thought to take away ignorance and turn the native from error, and one
consults an oracle or engages in philosophical inquiry ultimately in order to decide upon the proper courses of action. And, in governing, the king or sovereign imposes his authority on the native in order to
direct or control his activities [emphasis mine].

It is interesting, Schmidt says What guides or leads the native's actions.
This is really, really great!
Ninth by secondary motion goes toward the 10th which is the peak place, place with greatest authority, place with greatest visibility, the shining place.
This native has problems with authority who have power, and who even try to exercise power over him; so if we get a little bit more psychological here, we would say that his actions are led by desire for authority and power, because he don't want anybody to exercise power upon him!
He can't stand authorities, so he want to become one!

Saturn is also a planet who rarely wants to be submissive, who is rebelious, unruly.

And, in governing, the king or sovereign imposes his authority on the native in order to direct or control his activities

It is obvious that this man wants authority, wants success, wants power.
It is true that later on in the tradition, and nowadays, 10th is the place of the king and hence analogous to the authority and power. Even if we look at the situation from this standpoint, we would say that "his actions are guided [9th] by the motivation [ascendant] to get authority, dignity and power [10th]."

Hope this helped..

Edit:
Also, remember which planet rejoice in 9th: the Sun who is also analogous of Authority.

thanks ile
you now seem to prefer quadrant systems,otherwise those two charts wouldnt make sense, Dykes also seems to prefer them. Have you got more case studies which vouch for one or another system?
Like Mark I cant get out of my mind the problem of high latitudes,though.

I think i also vouch for placidus. My cousin,a Scorpio rising in day chart,has third part of life ruled by Moon in Aries in 5th. Hes been playing golf around the world since he retired,he also began to learn guitar.This is more in line with Moon in 5 than 6th in my view.

Hello Ile,

Very interesting delineation. I am having difficult time seeing the 9th house cusp for chart 2. Looks to me like Saturn is in 8th also in the second chart, looks like 9th house starts at 24 degrees, and Saturn at 22?, not sure I am seeing it clearly though.