Skyscript Astrology Forum

In response to a query in another section:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 1&start=15

james_m wrote:hi varuna,

the 5th harmonic and the panchamsa chart are one and the same.. i don't know what the parivritti panchamsa chart is and if this is different from the panchamsa chart though. i would be curious to know your viewpoint on the significance of the divisional charts used in vedic and some sort of order of importance given them. i have always understood the 9th harmonic or navamsha chart to be most relevant.. where does the panchamsa chart sit in the hierarchy of divisional charts? thanks!

varuna2 wrote: James,

The D-5 panchamsa chart is said to relate to authority and power, in jyotish, and is similarly calculated as the trimshamsa chart, but the standard calculation is different from the Addey system. The parivritti panchamsa chart might be the same as the Addey system.

The following is the principles of calculations of the divisional (harmonic) charts in the Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra, there is more information about these divisions in the verses from which they were taken and in the following chapter, on the link at the end of the list. The chapters in the link are differently numbered from the chapters in the BPHS by GC Sharma. The commentary by G C Sharma would be helpful for further understanding them.

Notice that the principles of calculation of these traditional Jyotish harmonic charts are completely different from the principles of the Addey harmonic system. It is only a coincidence that some of them (e.g. D-9) happen to coincide with Addey harmonic charts.

Parasara wrote:
D-2 The first half of an odd R??i is the Hora, ruled by Sun. While the second half is the Hora of Moon. The reverse is true in the case of an even R??i. Half of a R??i is called Hora.

D-3 The 1st, 5th and the 9th R??is from a R??i are its three Dreshkanas

D-4 The Lords of the 4 KENDRAS from a R??i are the rulers of respective Chaturth???a of a R??i

D-7 The Sapt???a (one seventh of a R??i) counting commences from the same R??i in the case of an odd R??i. It is from the seventh R??i thereof, while an even R??i is considered.

D-9 The Nav?m?a calculation are for a Movable R??i from there itself, for a Fixed R??i from the 9th thereof and for a Dual R??i from the 5th thereof.

D-10Starting from the same R??i for an odd R??i and from the 9th with reference to an even R??i, the 10 Dash???as, each of 3 degrees, are reckoned.

D-12 The reckoning of the Dvadash???a (one twelfth of a R??i, or 2 degrees each [this should state 2:30 degrees each]) commences from the same R??i.

D-16 Starting from Aries for a Movable R??i, from Leo for a Fixed R??i and from Sagittarius for a Dual R??i, the 16 Shodash???as (16th part of a R??i, i.e. of 1?5230) are regularly distributed.

D-20 From Aries for a Movable R??i, from Sagittarius for a Fixed R??i and from Leo for a Common R??i: this is how the calculations of Vimsh???as (1/20th of a R??i, or 1030 each) are to commence.

D-24 The Chaturvimsh??? (1/24th part of a R??i, or 1:15 each) distribution commences from Leo and Cancer, respectively, for an odd and an even R??i.

D-27 The Saptavimsh??? Lords are, respectively, the presiding deities of the 27 Nakshatras, as under: Dastra (Ashvini Kumar [i.e. starting with ashwin]),[?] These are for an odd R??is. Count these deities in a reverse order for an even R??i.

D-30 Trimsh???a. The Trimsh???a Lords for an odd R??i are Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. Each of them in order rules 5, 5, 8, 7 and 5 degrees.
[?]In the case of an even R??i the quantum of Trimsh???a, Planet lordship and deities get reversed. [This is similar to a 5-fold division but called the D-30]

D-40 Khaved??? (1/40th part of a R??i). For odd R??is count from Aries and for an even R??i from Libra in respect of Khaved???as (each of 45 [minutes] of arc).

D-45 Akshaved??? (1/45th part of a R??i). Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are the R??is, from which the distributions, respectively, commence for Movable, Immovable and Common R??is. [i.e. the division starts with Aries in movable signs, Leo in fixed signs, and Sagittarius in dual signs]

D-60 Shashti??? (1/60th part of a R??i, or half a degree each). To calculate the Shashti??? Lord ignore the R??i position of a Planet and take the degrees etc. it traversed in that R??i. Multiply that figure by 2 and divide the degrees by 12. Add 1 to the remainder, which will indicate the R??i, in which the Shashti??? falls. The Lord of that R??i is the Planet, ruling the said Shashti???. In odd R??is the names of Shashti???as are 1. Ghora [etc.] The reverse is the order for even R??is in so much, as these names are cased.

http://www.astrojyoti.com/bphspage1-2.htm

Notice that the panchamsa chart is not even mentioned in the BPHS.

"D-5 Pancamamsa: Each portion of Pancamamsa consists of 6*. In odd signs such as Aries, Gemini, Leo, etc. these five-fold divisions are ruled by Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury and Venus respectively. The sequence for the even signs such as Taurus, Cancer, Virgo etc. is reversed so that the first division is ruled by Venus, the second by Mercury, third by Jupiter and so on" (The Timing of Events by Bepin Behari).

This explanation is incomplete because there are 2 signs for each planet.

Let us look at a semi-random secret-meeting sunrise chart, although a sunrise chart seems wrong to use for a secret meeting, but it will serve as an example of the differences in the principles and calculations, between the Addey harmonic system and Jyotish harmonic system.

Semi-random Secret meeting Sunrise chart
Date: April 21, 1965
Time: 5:31:56
Time Zone: 1:00:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 9 E 15' 00", 45 N 59' 00"
Bellagio, Italy
Altitude: 199.00 meters

Lunar Yr-Mo: Viswa-vasu - Chaitra
Tithi: Krishna Shashthi (Ve) (94.17% left)
Vedic Weekday: Wednesday (Me)
Nakshatra: Moola (Ke) (37.81% left)
Yoga: Siva (Me) (80.86% left)
Karana: Garija (Ju) (88.33% left)
Hora Lord: Mercury (5 min sign: Vi)
Mahakala Hora: Venus (5 min sign: Ge)
Kaala Lord: Mercury (Mahakala: Venus)

Sunrise: 5:31:56
Sunset: 19:12:19
Janma Ghatis: 0.0026

Ayanamsa: 23-16-32.95
Sidereal Time: 19:05:10

Standard (5th harmonic/divisional chart) panchamsa data with jhora freeware:
Lagna 7 Aq 55'
Sun - 7 Aq 57'
Moon - 11 Aq 27'
Mars - 17 Sg 17'
Mercury (R) 2 Cp 35'
Jupiter - 2 Vi 07'
Venus - 19 Aq 40'
Saturn - 12 Ge 04' 14.02"
Rahu 24 Cp 20' 33.37"
Ketu 24 Cp 20' 33.37"


The (5th harmonic/non-standard divisional chart) data with jhora freeware for the: Parivritti panchamsa (cyclical, H-5):

Lagna 7 Ta 55'
Sun - 7 Ta 57'
Moon - 11 Vi 27'
Mars - 17 Aq 17'
Mercury (R) - 2 Aq 35'
Jupiter - 2 Li 07'
Venus - 19 Ta 40'
Saturn - 12 Vi 04'
Rahu 24 Sg 20'
Ketu 24 Ge 20'

Notice the degrees are the same but the placement in reference to the Ascendant placement in the signs, or zodiac frame of reference, is different. The planets are not even in the same house relationships with each other or from the Ascendant. Also notice the nodes end up in the same sign in the standard calculation, but in opposite signs in the cyclical, presumably(?) Addey-type principle calculation.

Before we ponder the use of divisional charts will you post the 5th harmonic data for this time and place, with your program, and state which program you used? If the second data listed, matches your 5th harmonic chart (please switch your frame of reference to KP ayanamsha for this example, I happened to use the KP ayanamsha), then we can be relatively sure the Addey system is the same as the principles behind the nonstandard Parivritti cyclical H-5 panchamsa chart.

In case you do not have that ayanamsha option, here is the tropical chart data:

Standard panchamsa
Lagna 4 Ta 18' 36.49" Krit 3 Ta Aq
Sun - 4 Ta 19' 00.01" Krit 3 Ta Aq
Moon - 7 Ta 48' 51.77" Krit 4 Ta Pi
Mars - 13 Vi 39' 01.62" Hast 2 Vi Ta
Mercury (R) - 28 Aq 57' 04.74" PBha 3 Aq Ge
Jupiter - 28 Sc 28' 34.47" Jye 4 Sc Pi
Venus - 16 Ta 02' 13.82" Rohi 2 Ta Ta
Saturn - 8 Pi 25' 30.70" UBha 2 Pi Vi
Rahu 20 Sg 41' 50.05" PSha 3 Sg Li
Ketu 20 Sg 41' 50.05" PSha 3 Sg Li

parivritti panchamsa
Lagna 4 Vi 18' 36.49" UPha 3 Vi Aq
Sun - 4 Vi 19' 00.01" UPha 3 Vi Aq
Moon - 7 Cp 48' 51.77" USha 4 Cp Pi
Mars - 13 Ge 39' 01.62" Ardr 3 Ge Aq
Mercury (R) - 28 Ta 57' 04.74" Mrig 2 Ta Vi
Jupiter - 28 Cp 28' 34.47" Dhan 2 Cp Vi
Venus - 16 Vi 02' 13.82" Hast 2 Vi Ta
Saturn - 8 Cp 25' 30.70" USha 4 Cp Pi
Rahu 20 Ar 41' 50.05" Bhar 3 Ar Li
Ketu 20 Li 41' 50.05" Visa 1 Li Ar

Hello James and Varuna
In Indian programs or books, "parivritti" divisionals are always the same as our Western harmonics (i.e. Addey style, as Varuna suggests). Sometimes they are just called "cyclical". I think parivritti means "fully turning" or something along those lines.
The classic texts say to start the count from 0? Aries, as with tropical harmonics.
As Varuna says, panchamsa is not metnioned in Parasara, but is in Jaimini. Narasimha Rao (of Jagganath Hora) writes:

Sage Parasara defined 16 different divisions of rasis. Jaimini and Tajaka writers mentioned 4 more divisions. It is possible that Parasara also dealt with these 4 special divisions in sections that are perhaps missing today.

Graham

graham,

thanks and nice to see you back here!

varuna,

i am happy to post a chart, but since you have posted a sunrise and sunset time in your example, which chart would you like me to post a 5th harmonic chart for specifically? thanks.

Graham, can you cite the source for that? It would be good to see the writings of Narasimha Rao.

James, although Graham cleared that up it would still be fun to see the differences and similarities between these 3 5th harmonic charts in action.

In the 4 examples of 5th harmonic charts given I did not change the input data from the sunrise chart; I only posted the data from the KP ayanamsha for two and the Sayana (Tropical) data for two.

Here is the Lahiri ayanamsha panchamsa data for April 21, 1965
Time: 5:31:56
Time Zone: 1:00:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 9 E 15' 00", 45 N 59' 00"
Bellagio, Italy
Altitude: 199.00 meters

Standard (5th harmonic/divisional chart) panchamsa data with jhora freeware:

Lagna 7 Aq 26'
Sun - 7 Aq 28'
Moon - 10 Aq 58'
Mars - 16 Sg 48'
Mercury (R) - 2 Cp 06'
Jupiter - 1 Vi 38'
Venus - 19 Aq 11'
Saturn - 11 Ge 35'
Rahu 23 Cp 51'
Ketu 23 Cp 51'

The (5th harmonic/non-standard divisional chart) data with jhora freeware for the: Parivritti panchamsa (cyclical, H-5):

Lagna 7 Ta 26'
Sun - 7 Ta 28'
Moon - 10 Vi 58'
Mars - 16 Aq 48'
Mercury (R) - 2 Aq 06'
Jupiter - 1 Li 38'
Venus - 19 Ta 11'
Saturn - 11 Vi 35'
Rahu 23 Sg 51'
Ketu 23 Ge 51'

hi varuna,

i can't do Parivritti panchamsa, but i can do panchamsa and i can do the 5th harmonic.. they are one and the same here using lahiri. i am unable to input location altitude in solar fire software which might explain the slight difference between the ascendant and the sun and why it is not an 'exact' sunrise chart using solar fire with this data.


free photo hosting

James,

It is good you put both labeled 5th part charts from Solarfire together, so we can see they are identical and if you look at my previous post you can see they are identical to the parivritti option, but they are quite different from the standard panchamsa chart data I posted in my previous post. The Solarfire labeling of "vedic" harmonic charts is misleading and is in contradiction to the BPHS (standard accepted definitions of the verses). Or maybe I am speaking too soon since we have only compared the 5th parts chart, which is not listed in the BPHS as it has arrived to us in the present. The two charts you posted are both calculated according to the same rules of dividing up the entire zodiac by certain harmonic numbers, in this case by 5, i.e. using John Addey?s rules of harmonics. These rules are very different from the BPHS rules of harmonics.

The BPHS has generally been considered the authority on Jyotish.

As is customary, there is not unanimous agreement in the Jyotish community as to the actual definitions of some of those 15 BPHS verses I posted previously, however, the calculation details are generally considered to be the standard Jyotish harmonic charts, but then there is the so-called Jaimini and Tajika schools also.

There are apparently 4 divisional chart options which follow the idea of sequential divisions of the zodiac in a similar manner to the Addey calculations, from the so-called non-Parasara schools according to Graham. It appears to be the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 10th harmonic chart options for Addey-type divisions.

What I have been trying to demonstrate is that the 5th panchamsa chart at Solarfire is not the 5th panchamsa chart in Jyotish. However, there is a parivritti option on jhora for the 5th division which is calculated the same as the charts you posted. There are disagreements in the Jyotish community on whether or not the parivritti option is valid, from the traditionalist point of view. I do not have an opinion either way at the present, and have never seen a text with those options, but there are many texts I have not read.

Compare the chart data you posted with the chart data I posted in my previous post. You can see it matches the parivritti 5th and not the standard 5th.

To make this more clear, compare the standard Jyotish BPHS 4th harmonic chart data with the lahiri ayanamsha and previous sunrise chart with Solarfire, although I adjusted the time with the following data to 5:31:57 since I previously went with the automated sunrise time of 56 seconds and it shifted some other data to the previous day with the previous time of 5:31:56.

Lahiri ayanamsha 5:31:57 D-4 Standard (Parasara) Chaturthamsha
Lagna 29 Ar 59'
Sun - 29 Ar 59'
Moon - 2 Pi 46'
Mars - 1 Aq 27'
Mercury (R) - 13 Vi 41'
Jupiter - 25 Ta 18'
Venus - 9 Cn 21'
Saturn - 21 Le 16'
Rahu 1 Aq 05'
Ketu 1 Le 05'
Uranus (R) 10 Aq 36'
Neptune (R) 13 Cn 01'
Pluto (R) 22 Aq 22'

My guess is that the Solarfire "vedic" 4th Chaturthamsha chart will give you a Moon in Capricorn among other differences, and that is not the standard 4th harmonic chart in Jyotish, which places the Moon in Pisces. This does not matter, and I do not want to say it is wrong, except that it is misleading if all of the divisional charts are calculated according to Addey rules and then labeled as 'vedic'. If the Solarfire 4th vedic chart matches the above data, then I am mistaken.

That Solarfire 5th harmonic chart you posted is for the first day of a secret meeting organized initially outside of actual government bodies, and attended by 13 so-called legal experts. It represents the death of the Europeans as peoples/tribes/nations. It was a murder plan by secrecy, and under the disguise of humanitarianism. If you wanted to know what the death of entire groups of people looks like, that 5th chart you posted might be revealing. I thought sunrise was appropriate because the sunrise sets the tempo of the entire day.

Moving on?

Is it more clear now?

Let us look at this with some hand calculation to clarify the matter.

"D-5 Pancamamsa: Each portion of Pancamamsa consists of 6*. In odd signs such as Aries, Gemini, Leo, etc. these five-fold divisions are ruled by Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury and Venus respectively. The sequence for the even signs such as Taurus, Cancer, Virgo etc. is reversed so that the first division is ruled by Venus, the second by Mercury, third by Jupiter and so on" (The Timing of Events by Bepin Behari).

Behari does not state which of the signs to use and when, but we can test his broad definition since we have the computer data.

Aries 0-6 ruled by Mars
Aries 6-12 ruled by Saturn
Aries 12-18 ruled by Jupiter
Aries 18-24 ruled by Mercury
Aries 24-30 ruled by Venus

This sunrise chart example D-1 normal Rashi chart has the lagna in the 2nd part of Aries ruled by Saturn for the D-5, and the standard panchamsa lagna is 7 Aqua 29'. This is correct.

The D-1 Sun is in 2nd part of Aries ruled by Saturn and in the D-5 is also in Aquarius.

The D-1 Moon is in 2nd part of Sag ruled by Saturn and the D-5 Moon is in Aquarius.

The D-1 Mars is in 3rd part of Leo ruled by Jupiter and the D-5 Mars is in Sag.

etc. All of the D-5 data fits the definition.



Compare those D-5 placements with the cyclical parivritti H-5 and Addey system:
D-1 / D-5 Sign number
0 Aries 1
6 Aries 2 D-1 Asc and D-1 Sun and D-1 Venus here all in H-5 Taurus
12 Aries 3
18 Aries 4
24 Aries 5
30 Aries 6
6 Taurus 7 D-1 Jupiter here in H-5 Libra
12 Taurus 8
etc.
6 Leo 10
12 Leo 11 D-1 Mars here in H-5 Aquarius
18 Leo 12
etc.

All of the Solarfire "vedic" and parivritti H-5 data is the same and fits Addey's system.

p.s. When you posted the H-5 chart which I did not actually look at until you posted it, I was starting to feel like Cornelius must have felt. Divination is eerie.

The N. Rao quote is from his 515 page book linked to for free with Jagannatha Hora Software, or here:
http://www.vedicastrologer.org/articles ... xtbook.pdf

Graham

Thank you Graham.

i don't know how solar fire calculates these harmonic charts, but i am happy to provide examples to show you what the charts look like in different harmonics according to vedic, or addey.

i don't know if you have read addeys work but he says some of them are the same and some are different. i am going on memory and don't have a list in front of me articulating these differences. perhaps solar fire programmers could give more information on the vedic distinctions you are discussing as well. here is a biwheel for the 4th harmonic vedic and the 4th harmonic non vedic both using the same original time used on the other chart i posted.


image sharing

ps - i see the vedic 5th is Parivritti panchamsa, not panchamsa which is how it is listed. the data is very different!

James,

I have not read Addey?s work, other than a few pages online once upon a time.

BPHS: D-4 ?The Lords of the 4 KENDRAS from a R??i are the rulers of respective Chaturth???a of a R??i.?

Here is how that verse has been interpreted by many, if not all, jyotishis:

D-1 Sign / D-4 Sign
0 - 7* 30? Aries = Aries D-1 Sun and Asc are here
7*30? ? 15* Aries = Cancer D-1 Venus is here
15* - 22*30? Aries = Libra
22*30? ? 30 Aries = Capricorn
0 ? 7*30? Taurus = Taurus D-1 Jupiter is here
7*30? ? 15* Taurus = Leo
15* - 22*30? Taurus = Scorpio
22*30? ? 30 Taurus = Aquarius D-1 Rahu is here
etc.

I checked all of the planets like this and they all match the below jhora software placement for the D-4 Chaturthamsha for the 5:31:56 time:

D-4 Vedic Chaturthamsha
Lagna 29 Ar 57'
Sun - 29 Ar 58'
Moon - 2 Pi 46'
Mars - 1 Aq 27'
Mercury (R) - 13 Vi 41'
Jupiter - 25 Ta 18'
Venus - 9 Cn 21'
Saturn - 21 Le 16'
Rahu 1 Aq 05'
Ketu 1 Le 05'
Uranus (R) 10 Aq 36'
Neptune (R) 13 Cn 01'
Pluto (R) 22 Aq 22'

Compare this list with the chart you posted with the Solarfire so-called D-4 vedic chaturthamsha, you can see this list does not match either of the Solarfire 4th parts charts.

hi varuna,

yes i see they are not the same. as graham pointed out, the starting point is important. if indeed they are not the correct charts as you seem to suggest, perhaps solar fire would benefit from knowing this!

the bigger question for me is what is the difference between a 'divisional' chart and a 'harmonic' chart? they are both dividing the chart so they share that in common! what else do they share in common? some of them are the very same and some aren't..

obviously charts can be used for different purposes.

i like to think of the obvious connection between the number, lets use an example here - 4 - and the square aspect. lets continue with your sunrise chart and take a look at the configuration of saturn, north node and pluto. they form a t square in the root chart. this t square pattern shows up in the D-4 Chaturthamsha now as an opposition between saturn and pluto( same as the root chart, but as a conjunction between the north node and pluto.. in the 4th harmonic chart all 3 points/planets are in a wide conjunction.

i mostly use harmonic charts to focus more on these sorts of patterns. it tells me that these planets are brought together in the 4th harmonic when one might not immediately see that so quickly in the root chart.. actually it works a lot better in other harmonic charts where it is not so easy to see the aspectual relationships. we are used to looking at squares and oppositions, but not so used to looking at novile aspects which is the aspect connected to the 9th harmonic. coincidentially the 9th harmonic and the vedic chart for the 9th divisional charts are one and the same.

i suppose this is what i use the charts for. i am always curious about what indian astrologers use these charts for but every time i try to get a leg up on how they use them i am thrown back into the complex language and rules of indian astrology! i bought a book on navamsha and it did more to befuddle me then anything else.. it might have been like someone talking democracy and doing something completely different for all i knew!!

in lay mans terms, what do you use these charts for varuna?