oriental verses occidental 1 by james_m i just finished reading this book 'the introduction to the science of the judgments of the stars' sahl ibn bishr - james holden translation.. i have a few questions that i would like to ask, or topics to talk about that others might want to join in on.. in book V - the book of times sahl ibn bishr points out that ptolemy and mash'allah had a different concept on oriental and occidental.. i know there is a few ways one can think of this way of defining a planet. i am only focused on this description based on the circle of houses.. ptolemy gives the ascendant to midheaven - houses 12,11 and 10 as oriental, along with houses 6,5,4 found between the descendant and i.c or 4th house cusp. the opposing areas and houses are defined as occidental.. mash'allah gives the eastern hemisphere houses - i.c. to midheaven - 3,2,1,12,11 and 10 as oriental while the western hemisphere houses opposite as occidental.. i relate to mash'allahs definition of this and have always scratched my head over ptolemys definition and description of oriental/occidental.. i was happy to read this near the end of holdens translation of sahl ibn bishr but am curious if anyone can explain the less rationale logic to the definition given by ptolemy.. Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:08 am
2 by Mark The terms oriental and occidental have caused a fair bit of confusion in the astrological tradition as these words have been used for planets in quite different situations. Unfortunately, texts quite frequently fail to explain what their definition of the term is. In the introduction to his translation of Bonatti's Book of Astronomy Ben Dykes sets out three different ways in which astrological literature used the terms oriental and occidental: 1. Planets are ?oriental? if they rise visibly before the Sun, and ?occidental? if they set visibly after him. This is similar to the modern understanding, since to rise visibly before the Sun means at least to be in an earlier degree. There were differing opinions on the longitudinal interval a planet had to be in, and whether the intervals were of equal significance. 2. Planets are ?oriental? if they are in the ?eastern? quadrant between the Ascendant and Midheaven ( i.e., where the Sun rises) or the one opposite to it, and ?occidental? if they are on the ?western? quadrant between the Midheaven and the 7th ( i.e.,when the Sun sets) or the one opposite to it. 3. Planets are ?oriental? if they currently , or within 7 days before or after the nativity , are rising out of the Sun?s beams and will become visible at sunrise or sunset; they are ? occidental? if they currently , or within seven days before or after the nativity, are sinking into the Sun?s beams and will become invisible at sunrise or sunset. In Hellenistic astrology this is an example of of what is called ?making a phasis? , and the distance from the Sun at which this arising or sinking would happen, was standardised at 15 degrees. According to this definition , the inferiors can be ?oriental? ( or pertaining?to-arising) on either side of the Sun, since they can arise both while going direct and on their retrograde path. (Book of Astronomy, Guido Bonatti, translated by Benjamin Dykes, 2007, page Ixxxii-Ixxxiii) The first defintion is probably the most common in the medieval and renaissance tradition. Ptolemy also offers us the second definition which relates back to planetary sect. Hence the first quadrant from ASC-MC is masculine, the second from MC-DESC feminine etc. The third definition is found in Paul of Alexandria. Benjamin Dykes has concluded that Paul's definition was the basis for the medieval innovation of differentiating between planets being 'combust' as opposed to simply 'under the beams'. Looking at the Skyscript Glossary under oriental/occidental it appears the terms have even more uses in the tradition! If a planet is described as 'oriental in the figure', it means that it is located near the ascendant which is the eastern angle, whilst 'occidental in the figure', means that it is located near the descendant which is the western angle. Occidental hemisphere is the western/setting hemisphere, incorporating the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th houses. Oriental hemisphere - the eastern/rising hemisphere, incorporating the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 12th, and 11th houses. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/oriental.html http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/oriental.html The best discussion I have seen of the quadrants is in the 2nd edition of Deborah Houlding's book Houses: Temples of the Sky. If you haven't already got this book I highly recommend it to you. Mark Last edited by Mark on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:47 pm
3 by james_m thanks mark, it is the 2nd definition given by ptolemy that i was hoping to get more clarity on.. throwing in the words masculine and feminine as having some sort of connection to oriental and occidental don't make a huge amount of sense to me, but when you mention planetary sect i get the idea in a weird kind of way.. how is going from the descendant to the i.c. supposed to be oriental? i've got debs book.. maybe i ought to re-read it again.. your quote from skyscript is akin to mash'allahs description of the terms. Last edited by james_m on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:08 pm
4 by Mark Hi James, ...throwing in the words masculine and feminine as having some sort of connection to oriental and occidental don't make a huge amount of sense to me, but when you mention planetary sect i get the idea in a weird kind of way.. Its precisely the same logic we use for signs and linking them to planetary sect. Hence Saturn rules both Capricorn and Aquarius but it has its 'joy' in the latter because it is a masculine sign which relates to the diurnal sect. I dont have my copy of Temples to hand just now or time to quote from it. However, I think if there is an answer in writing anywhere that is the closest I am aware of. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:11 pm
5 by james_m mark, i will take a lot at her book and if i find something relevant on this i will get back and share it. thanks - james Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:18 pm
6 by Mark From Astro Wiki: Using the symbolism of the sun through the quadrants, traditional astrologers determined that the upper hemisphere indicated visible, public expression; whereas the lower hemisphere showed more private, hidden matters. East indicated active beginnings and initiative. The West showed, if not a state of decline, traits that were more passive and adaptable. The top of a horoscope also indicates the direction south; and the bottom of the horoscope, north. Consequently, in putting together the compound meanings of the quadrants, traditional astrologers determined that the southeast quadrant, for example, was hot, moist, active, masculine, and symbolic of infancy. http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Quadrant I recall now that there is also a good discussion of this subject in the book On the Heavenly Spheres: A Treatise on Traditional Astrology by Luis Ribeiro and Helena. Yet another book I cant lay my hands on just now! Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:01 pm