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And They Call It Perfection?

1 by PallasAthene
Hello everyone

I expect this has been mentioned all over the forum, but I haven't seen it collected together in one thread. If it does exist, or you come across threads which reference this subject, please feel free to post the links/charts here.

So, what am I talking about?

Is it possible for the matter to be brought to perfection when the planet making the aspect (the faster planet) is in detriment or fall?

For example, currently we have Moon in Scorpio in applying trine to Venus in Cancer.
Moon in fall, no reception (although Venus bestows/pushes her virtue).
But look at that lovely trine!

Or

Moon in Capricorn applying sextile to Saturn in Scorpio.
Moon in triplicity but also in detriment
Saturn in fall of moon
And a marvellous sextile.

Bonatti's Table of Perfection does not account for these placements although they do appear regularly.

So, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum, if you would be so kind, opinions, discussions and best of all, proven examples of perfection or lack of it please!

2 by cor scorpii
Moon in fall, no reception (although Venus bestows/pushes her virtue).
Only a faster moving planet can "push" anything.

Very briefly :)

In this case, Venus doesn't receive it because it is in its own fall and it comes from the sign of her detriment. Theoretically this may cause the perfection of the matter, but the essential debility of the Moon and the lack of reception cause corruption and an unsatisfactory result (other testimonies concurring) but I imagine this alone would suffice to complicate/ultimately destroy the matter.

Bonatti does discuss such cases

And you must know that even though I told you that matters are perfected
by trine or sextile aspects, you must however understand well: because if the place from which the Lord of the Ascendant (or the Moon) is aspected by the Lord of the quaesited matter (namely by which the matter itself is signified), or the place from which the Lord or significator of the matter is aspected by the Lord of the Ascendant (or the Moon) is the detriment of the one specting, the matter is not perfected, even if the aspect is a sextile or trine.

Book of Astronomy, Treatise six: On Questions p.365

Goran
Last edited by cor scorpii on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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3 by james_m
i take it reception thru triplicity or face isn't enough based on the particular degree and sign of venus or is it that no one really uses triplicity or face as a means of reception?

4 by cor scorpii
james_m wrote:i take it reception thru triplicity or face isn't enough based on the particular degree and sign of venus or is it that no one really uses triplicity or face as a means of reception?
According to ancient authorities, such receptions can only be effective/called "true" reception if given in a combination of two lesser dignities - face/term/triplicity.

Goran
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com

5 by PallasAthene
Moon in fall, no reception (although Venus bestows/pushes her virtue).

Only a faster moving planet can "push" anything.
Thank you for the correction cor scorpii. So what is the correct term for this particular placement of Venus in relation to the Moon?

So it is not the detriment of the applying planet that prevents... (ie that it is too weak to act)
it is the fact that the applied to planet is in the place of that planets detriment? Is this correct?

james-m, yes, rulership or exultation are required.
Triplicity AND another dignity would be required for reception.
But we can still have perfection without reception, it's just the ease of obtaining the matter decreases.
http://skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html

6 by PallasAthene
Do you think it's possible that the potential event indicated by the aspect could still happen... it's just the querent will not get what they want ie perfection of the matter, from the "event".

Or do you think it more likely that the "event" won't happen at all?

7 by james_m
cor scorpii wrote:
james_m wrote:i take it reception thru triplicity or face isn't enough based on the particular degree and sign of venus or is it that no one really uses triplicity or face as a means of reception?
According to ancient authorities, such receptions can only be effective/called "true" reception if given in a combination of two lesser dignities - face/term/triplicity.

Goran
it qualifies here with a combo of triplicity and face/term. thanks for your comments..

8 by cor scorpii
So what is the correct term for this particular placement of Venus in relation to the Moon?

So it is not the detriment of the applying planet that prevents... (ie that it is too weak to act)
it is the fact that the applied to planet is in the place of that planets detriment? Is this correct?
The applied to planet is simply the receiver of the pushing planet's "disposition" which can entail

1) pushing nature - the applying planet is coming from exaltation/domicile or two lesser dignities of the applied to planet; a case of "classical reception"

2) pushing two natures - the applying planet is in some of its own dignities while at the same in some dignity of the applied to planet

3) pushing management/counsel - simple application of one planet to another, no reception involved

4) pushing power - the applying planet is in some of its own dignities and the applied to planet can benefit from its essential power/dignity (in the case the applying planet is not in the sign of the applied to planet's detriment/fall)

Hope I haven't missed anything important here :)

Detriment/fall count as bad (and preventing satisfactory results i.e a good quality of the outcome) when either the applying or the applied to planet is essentially corrupted.

Bonatti mentions both scenarios in the quote I've provided.

Goran
Last edited by cor scorpii on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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10 by cor scorpii
PallasAthene wrote:Thanks Goran.

Poor old moon in Capricorn and Saturn are never going to get it together then? : (
Well, I'd sat it's the case of Saturn offering true esteem/hospitality to the Moon, but the Moon won't really be able to profit from it due to Saturn's retrogradation(return of the Moon's light) and being posited in the sign of the Moon' fall.

It's the case of approaching someone eagerly (the Moon applying) only to find him indecisive/wavering and in such a condition that is ultimately harming/dragging down the one seeking to establish the relationship.

It is as if Saturn says to the Moon something like this (because of the reception given)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLXGwjpVqw


Goran
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com

11 by Morpheus
In an ideal world, for an ideal question, requiring ideal outcome and thing handed over in the lap, nothing short of well dignified significators applying out of most benefic houses would suffice. But we know that life is not like that. In my practical experience I have seen ill dignified planets applying with ill aspects without proper reception bringing the required outcome. But there were periods of depression, struggle, doubts between asking a question and getting that particular thing.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

12 by PallasAthene
Goran, thanks for the link. That explains it very well.
But what does he say at 1:00?

Morpheus, thank you for your input. Do you have a chart to show? I'm inclined to think that the aspect itself will show some kind of event, and the debility will show the effect or the nature of the outcome (perfection).
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