Skyscript Astrology Forum

The discussions of dasa systems I have so far seen seem almost exclusively Nakshatra focused (Vimsottari, Yogini etc)

A significant exception seems to be the Kalachakra Dasa which uses the Navamsa chart. Updated Note: As Martin's reply below clarifies this is not entirely accurate as this system can be seen as Nakshatra based too.

I am interested in dasa systems that seem to exclude the nakshatras altogether. These dont seem to get anything like the attention devoted to Nakshatra derived systems. I have come across a couple of pieces discussing the Narayana Dasa system (aka Padakrama Dasa in south India). From what the authors state this is the most popular of the rasi based dasas.

http://varahamihira.blogspot.co.uk/2005 ... es-to.html

http://docs.rohinaa.com/narayandasa.pdf

I just wondered if any of you had experience of this system or other non-nakshatra based systems? How popular are these amongst Indian astrologers?

Thanks

Mark

Mark wrote:The discussions of dasa systems I have so far seen seem almost exclusively Nakshatra focused (Vimsottari, Yogini etc)

A significant exception seems to be the Kalachakra Dasa which uses the Navamsa chart.

K?lacakra-da?? has its own nav???a scheme that differs from the standard one. It is usually considered a nak?atra-da??, as each nav???a or ninth-part of a sign is also a p?da or quarter of a nak?atra.

However, I am interested in purely rasi based systems derived from the basic natal chart. I have come across a couple of pieces discussing the Narayana Dasa system (aka Padakrama Dasa). From what I can gather this is the most popular of the rasi based dasas.

http://varahamihira.blogspot.co.uk/2005 ... es-to.html

http://docs.rohinaa.com/narayandasa.pdf

I just wondered if any of you had experience of this system? How popular is it in India? Have you found it efficacious in your own astrology?

I have never used it or seen it discussed anywhere outside the circles of Sanjay Rath and his students. It is a pretty safe bet that anyone who uses N?r?ya?a-da?? is directly or indirectly connected with Rath, who claims knowledge of this and other techniques through hereditary oral tradition. If I may quote my own article on 'Modern astrologers', recently submitted to Brill's Encyclopedia of Hinduism:

By combining astrology with teachings on other aspects of Hindu practice ? including mantra, mudr?, and pr???y?ma ? and claiming access to an unbroken succession of teachers (guru-parampar?) while simultaneously accepting students from non-Hindu backgrounds and working from materials in English translation, Rath has in effect created an international, astrologically oriented guru movement, comparable in many respects to the various yoga and meditation organizations present in the west since the mid-twentieth century.

The oldest da?? procedures used in India are not based on nak?atras but on classical Greek elements such as the ascendant and luminaries and the angular, succedent and cadent places; they are also intimately connected with life-span calculations (?yurd?ya). This system, commonly known as m?la-da??, is treated for instance in the 8th chapter of the B?hajj?taka and in the 7th chapter of the J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati).

It is interesting to note that as late an author as Balabhadra, arguing in 1629 for the utility of annual revolutions over classical da?? systems, takes m?la-da?? as the standard system:

The good and evil results arising from the [classical Indian] science of genethlialogy are pronounced after establishing the true [places of the] planets at the time of birth; calculating the aspects, the six strengths, the strengths for good and evil, and the years of life (?yus) of all the planets; and deriving the periods (da??) and sub-periods (antarda??) from them. And there, too, the knowledge of computation [necessary] in calculating the multipliers involved in the strengths for good and evil, along with the divisors, and of the computation of the years elapsed in the Kali [age] at the time of birth [necessary] in [calculating] the beginning of a period, and so forth, belongs only to experts in the system, not to just anyone. (H?yanaratna, chapter 1, my translation.)

Thanks Martin,

K?lacakra-da?? has its own nav???a scheme that differs from the standard one. It is usually considered a nak?atra-da??, as each nav???a or ninth-part of a sign is also a p?da or quarter of a nak?atra.

Ohh! I had totally missed that point. Thanks

The oldest da?? procedures used in India are not based on nak?atras but on classical Greek elements such as the ascendant and luminaries and the angular, succedent and cadent places; they are also intimately connected with life-span calculations (?yurd?ya). This system, commonly known as m?la-da??, is treated for instance in the 8th chapter of the B?hajj?taka and in the 7th chapter of the J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati).

I must confess I had assumed some system of dasas utilising the Nakshatras were quite ancient considering the use the lunar mansions before the adoption of the 12 sign zodiac. Now you mention ithough t I had noticed a lot of life references in texts. Not surprising considering how short life expectancy probably was was in ancient and medieval India.

From the link above by Rafal Gendarz

Technical name of dasa is Padakrama Dasa and that is how Jaimini calls it, pada means feet of signs while krama means movement/direction.
In south regions this dasa is called Padakrama Dasa and in our Rath-Parampara we call this dasa ? Narayana Dasa. This is based on threefold division of Vasudeva?s body into Brahma, Visnu and Siva.

So it seems to be being claimed that this dasa system originates with Jaimini?

Mark

I just added a bit to my previous post.

Mark wrote:So it seems to be being claimed that this dasa system originates with Jaimini?

Apparently. This probably means it is very late: the Upade?as?tra ascribed to Jaimini is not likely to be older than the 17th century.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Apparently. This probably means it is very late: the Upade?as?tra ascribed to Jaimini is not likely to be older than the 17th century.

Ok. I suppose that is a mark down for the system in Indian astrological terms. Ancient (even Vedic!) origins seems to count for an awful lot in the Jyotish credibility stakes. Its almost the mirror image of most North American astrology today where everything is focused on the benefits of modernity and the shock of the new.

While we are on the subject have you any idea how old the popular nakshatra based dasa systems such as Vimshottari or Yogini actually are?

Mark

Mark wrote:Ok. I suppose that is a mark down for the system in Indian astrological terms. Antiquity seems to count for an awful lot in the Jyotish credibility stakes.

It does, though there is nothing uniquely Indian in this -- Arabic-Latin tradition (I hesitate to call it 'western') has its fair share of astrological texts ascribed to Hermes and other 'ancients'. But from an Indian believer's perspective, the Jaimini system is ancient, as it originates with the sage Jaimini before the beginning of Kaliyuga some 5,000 years ago! My point, which perhaps I should have stated more clearly, was simply that the system is a very minor one, partly because it hasn't had that long to establish itself. By the time it arose, it also had a fair bit of competition.

While we are on the subject have you any idea how old the popular nakshatra based dasa systems such as Vimshottari or Yogini actually are?

As far as I can make out from Pingree, the earliest text to mention them seems to be the B?hatp?r??arahor???stra (BPHS), which he dates to c. 600-800.

@Mark,

It is all there in BPHS(Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra).
If I recall correctly, a Perth based aussie astrologer runs this site and she has very nice english translations of standard texts.

http://jyotishvidya.com/books.htm

Down load the BPHS.zip file and read chapter 46 onwards.
Try the chakra dasa- it starts from the lagna, so almost like profection.

Then test the periods which have maximum dots in the Ashtakvarga ssytem
(Sarvashtakavarga- cumulative points in each house)and see if it matches your experience.

In the beginning, keep it very simple- good or bad, true or false and move on.

PD

Thanks Martin,

It is interesting to note that as late an author as Balabhadra, arguing in 1629 for the utility of annual revolutions over classical da?? systems, takes m?la-da?? as the standard system:

Could say any more about this m?la-da???

I cant find any online references in English that really explain it.

Is this referred to in the Brihatpar??arahor???stra?

Was this a purely rasi derived dasa?

Mark

Pankajdubey wrote:

It is all there in BPHS(Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra).
If I recall correctly, a Perth based aussie astrologer runs this site and she has very nice english translations of standard texts.

http://jyotishvidya.com/books.htm

Down load the BPHS.zip file and read chapter 46 onwards.
Try the chakra dasa- it starts from the lagna, so almost like profection.

Then test the periods which have maximum dots in the Ashtakvarga ssytem
(Sarvashtakavarga- cumulative points in each house)and see if it matches your experience.

In the beginning, keep it very simple- good or bad, true or false and move on.

Thank you for the link to the online version of the BPHS. It was fascinating to see the myriad of dasa systems mentioned. However, in nearly all cases the descriptions are exceptionally terse. While I know there are online calculators for various dasa systems I feel I really need some practical examples of how such dasa systems work before I would consider exploring them.

Thanks for your help

Mark

Mark wrote:Could say any more about this m?la-da???

I cant find any online references in English that really explain it.

Is this referred to in the Brihatpar??arahor???stra?

Was this a purely rasi derived dasa?

I haven't actually worked with it myself, so I can't summarize the calculation details off-hand, but the periods belong to the planets rather than to the signs, and the order of the periods depends on the planets' positions in angular, succedent and cadent houses, beginning with the ascendant, sun or moon. The length of each period isn't fixed as in Vi??ottar?, etc, but unique to the nativity under consideration, each planet contributing to the native's total life span according to its strength. I don't think it's in the BPHS.

Thanks Martin,

Martin Gansten wrote:

This system, commonly known as m?la-da??, is treated for instance in the 8th chapter of the B?hajj?taka and in the 7th chapter of the J?takakarmapaddhati (?r?patipaddhati).

The fact Var?hamihira mentions this dasa in the B?ihat Jakata must make it very ancient indeed. So we can date it back to the 6th century CE at least.

Martin Gansten wrote:

I haven't actually worked with it myself, so I can't summarize the calculation details off-hand, but the periods belong to the planets rather than to the signs, and the order of the periods depends on the planets' positions in angular, succedent and cadent houses, beginning with the ascendant, sun or moon. The length of each period isn't fixed as in Vi??ottar?, etc, but unique to the nativity under consideration, each planet contributing to the native's total life span according to its strength.

It does sound a most intriguing dasa system I must say. I know you referred above to this system having classic elements from hellenistic astrology such as the focus on the ASC and luminaries. Any view on whether this is likely to be indigenous or influenced by hellenistic techniques?

Mark

Mark wrote:It does sound a most intriguing dasa system I must say. I know you referred above to this system having classic elements from hellenistic astrology such as the focus on the ASC and luminaries. Any view on whether this is likely to be indigenous or influenced by hellenistic techniques?

This is really just a guess at present, but I think it is most likely to be based directly or indirectly on Hellenistic procedures.