Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mansions in Sidereal Leo
There are two full mansions in Leo plus the first quarter of a third, but only the first mansion, Magha (whose central star is Regulus, the Lion's Heart) shows patterns that may be significant when the Sun and Ascendant are found there.

In India's astrology, Magha's symbol is the royal throne room.This symbolism is matched by Regulus as one of the four Royal Stars of the ancient Sumerians. The Indian deities of this mansion are the Pitris, ancestors of the family. Svoboda and de Fouw write, "Magha represents gifts freely given...without expectation of return, and so suggest support." (Light on Life, p.228)

This designation emerges in Magha in the largest group of those with the Ascendant and Sun in this mansion--men and women whose renown comes almost solely from association with more famous family members on the world stage. AstroDatabank uses the term "noted family" for those who fall into this category.

Sun and Ascendant in Mansion #10 (Magha) in Leo
0 to 13 deg 20 min sidereal Leo
(Approximately 23.5 Leo to 7 Virgo tropical)

Leo Sun degrees (Krishnamurti)
Renown through association:
0.1 a producer, son of Gregory Peck
0.1 member of a famous psychic family
0.2 Rumer Willis, daughter of Bruce Willis and Demi Moore
0.5 Jon Morrow Lindberg, second son of Charles and Anne
1.4 Marita Lorenz, unusual life story that was made into a movie.
1.8 Rosalynn Carter, First Lady
2.9 Kevin Dillon, actor, brother of actor Matt Dillon
4.3 Conor Clapton, son of Eric Clapton
7.0 Leslie Van Houten, member of the notorious Manson Family
7.9 Irving Thalberg, Jr., son of movie mogul Irving Thalberg

A possible second emphasis of this mansion can be found in the spiritual or metaphysical area. This category possibly relates to Ketu (Moon's south node) as the Vimshottari lord of Magha. Ketu has psychic and metaphysical correlations in India's astrology. Indian spiritual teacher and Guru Paramahansa Yogananda had his Ascendant (in the degree of Regulus) and Moon in Magha. There are only three individuals with Ascendant/Sun in this category in ADB, but this may be because there was no large collection of these types of people contributed to the databank.

Sun degree (Metaphysical Occupations)
0.1 Psychic Luiz Antonio Gasparetto who claimed to channel famous painters
2.3 Helen Wambach, psychologist, known for reincarnation research
3.5 Sophie Aldred who co-authored a paranormal TV series

There were only two astrologers with the Ascendant and Sun in Magha (10.3 and 13.3). It's doubtful that astrology falls in the same category as psychic occupations (such as channeling) and reincarnation research. Astrologers primarily work with clients in counseling situations. The few scattered remaining occupations in Magha will be covered in paragraphs discussing Leo as a whole.

The remainder of sidereal Leo will be covered in my next post. I'm trying to keep these posts reasonably short by covering only the highlights of the Sun and Ascendant in each sign.

The remaining two mansions in sidereal Leo, the first and second halves of Phalguni, are made up of stars in the Lion's hind quarters and tail (Denebola). Perhaps because the Vimshottari lord of the first part of Phalguni is Venus, no clear occupational pattern showed up for this section of Leo.

Appropriately enough, in India's astrology the mansions in this part of Leo are said to represent a bed or hammock. The first part of Phalguni covers Leo 13 deg 20 to 26 deg 40, and the final 3 deg 20 minutes of Leo (26 deg 40 to 30 degrees) contains the first quarter of the second half of "the bed." These two final mansions of Leo cover approximately 6.5 to 23 degrees of tropical Virgo (thus, the greater part of this tropical sign).

Lacking a clear pattern in either mansion, it's more productive to consider occupations in Leo as a whole. We begin to see here suggestions of the basic energy of Leo as a sign. The largest group is composed of professions that require an advanced education, and in general earn the respect of the populace.

Leo Sun degrees: (Ascendant also in Leo's mansions--Krishnamurti ayanamsa)
Professions
00.5 oceanographer
02.3 professor of psychology (Ph.D.)
03.8 respiratory physician
11.5 attorney and judge
15.0 physician
19.4 physician and scientist
24.8 philosopher

A second Leo group contains those who work in the entertainment field, though in general these actors and actresses are not among the most famous. Only one noted actress, Ingrid Bergman, is found in the Leo group, and her Sun is in the first mansion (the Throne Room), Magha.
05.9 actress
06.9 actress
12.1 Ingrid Bergman
14.6 actor
22.3 actor
27.6 actor

A third Leo group contains those who work in media occupations:
00.1 producer
03.5 TV co-host
06.9 talk show host
13.6 journalist and TV personality

There are only four in the sports category:
02.5 football
12.1 ice hockey
18.0 swimming champion
24.2 judo expert

There were only two Leo politicians (13.4 and 15.7--governor of Texas) and in all of Leo, only three astrologers (10.3, 13.3 and 27.2). Only one astrologer per mansion! Leo had only three musicians (10.0, 19.1 and 25.1).

So except for a group of noted family members in Magha, using the criteria of the Sun and Ascendant in Leo mansions in the AstroDatabank files, only a hazy picture emerges. Perhaps if more cases had been available, we might see a clearer picture for Leo as a sign of respected professional occupations.

With such a meager showing in Leo, as a comparison, I asked ADB for the charts of those who had the Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars in Leo. Out of the entire ADB collection of more than 33,000 charts, ADB provided only a short list:

Sun degrees in Leo stelliums:
0.5 Julia Child, noted chef and TV personality (Also in the Maga Ascendant group.)
0.8 journalist
1.8 British politician (Parliament member)
2.6 Juliet Rubin, noted family member
2.7 talented writer who received awards
4.5 physician
4.6 artist
4.9 public figure due to death litigation
4.9 noted family
7.8 musician, entrepreneur
9.4 British politician (Parliament member)

Three UFO sightings: (18.8, 20.4, 21.7)

Though stellium planets occurred in all three Leo mansions, all the Sun degrees except the UFO sightings are in Magha, the first mansion! So except for Magha, Sidereal Leo is a question mark as to the influence it might have on planets.

The majority of the many hundreds of professions and occupations people work at are poorly represented in AstroDatabank. Astrologers have contributed thousands of cases of men and women who work in the entertainment, sports and media fields, popular musicians, homosexuals and astrologers.

But there is only the occasional dentist, computer technician or office worker, not to mention the many other unique fields of endeavor. Even the top professions in education, science and the medical field are poorly represented in ADB. Perhaps if we had a larger and more complete database, some of these diverse fields might be found in Leo.

Mansions in Sidereal Virgo
There is one full lunar mansion in sidereal Virgo and two partial mansions:

Phalguni (second half of "the bed") 0 to 10 degrees Virgo
(approximately 23.5 Virgo to 3.5 Libra tropical)

Hasta (the Hand) 10 to 23 deg 20 min Virgo
(approximately 3.5 to 17 degrees Libra tropical)

Chitra (a Shining Jewel, first half) 23 deg 20 min to 30 degrees Virgo
(approximately 17 deg Libra to 0 degrees of Scorpio tropical)

Though discernable patters possibly appear to be developing throughout Virgo as a sign, only three groupings hint at being linked to specific mansions:

Sun Degrees in Ascendant Mansion:

(1) Mansion #13 (Hasta), Moon, Dasa lord
Media and entertainment
10.4 TV co-host
11.7 sports announcer
11.7 actor
13.9 actress, awards for roles
16.7 film producer and director

(2) Mansion #13 (Hasta as above)
Sporting Group
02.0 swimming champion
12.6 winning jockey
14.4 yachtman who sailed around the world
14.4 baseball, set recores
16.7 baseball
16.8 football
19.1 soccer
21.8 swimming champion, Olympic gold

Hasta is ruled by the Moon in the Vimshottari system, and this may be a clue as to the developing patterns in that mansion of those whose role is before the public in media and sports. Of course these two groups appear in other mansions as well.

(3) The third discernable pattern is in Mansion #14, Chitra, whose Dasa lord is Mars. This mansion combining with a Mercury ruled sign appears to have an unfortunate or problem influence:
24.6 AIDS patient
25.4 Ted Bundy victim (homicide)
27.0 spina bifida 14329
27.1 AIDS patient
27.4 homosexual 10756
27.4 homosexual 10757
27.9 baby born with malformed heart (died)
29.8 murder victim

Spica and Arcturus in the early minutes of Libra are not a helpful influence here.

Patterns look more promising if we look at Virgo as a whole. There are a few groupings which might prove to be significant if we had more data:

Sun in Ascendant Mansions in Virgo:

Mercury occupations: money, mathematics and computers
00.3 computer science
00.8 real estate sales
06.7 Al biruni, astronomer
14.3 vice president, merchandising
16.5 real estate director
16.5 vice president, business

Entertainment and Media
Taking all Virgo mansion together, this is the largest group in the sign, but most cases fall in mansion #2:
00.4 Magic and illusionist David Coperfield
10.0 Actress and singer Olivia Neuton John
10.4 TV receptionist and co-host
11.7 sports announcer
22.7 actor
13.9 actress, awards
16.7 film producer and director
25.1 gifted child star
25.4 sports announcer

Sidereal Virgo (tropical Libra) is certainly not a sign for astrologers as there are only five with the Sun in an ascendant mansion in all of Virgo (.1, 12.9, 22.3, 24.0 and 28.9)

Aside from the sports group in Mansion #2, Hasta, there is only one other sports person in all of Virgo, a swimmer in 2.0.

There are a number of miscellaneous occupations through Virgo, but nothing stands out to suggest a pattern:
02.9 biochemist
09.3 homeopathic practitioner
13.5 lawyer
15.3 Bill Brown, famed chef
16.0 noted family
16.0 noted family
23.5 jurist, Queen's high court
28.3 Emeril, famed chef and entrepreneur

Lacking Ascendant/Sun data in ADB, I decided to look at personal planet stelliums in Virgo: Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars. This didn't produce any outstanding patterns.

Sun position in Sun-Mercury-Venus-Mars sidereal Virgo stelliums:

New age/occult, astrology
20.8 biorhythm specialist
21.9 astrologer
25.1 astrologer
25.5 astrologer
26.3 UFO researcher

Other positions seemed to be simply a throw of dice, unless we consider that Virgo's lord, Mercury is multi-faceted and can represent almost any profession or occupation.

Two sports people: 14.9 cycle racing and 26.6 baseball
Two religious vocations: 21.6 bishop and 29.6 priest
Two financial people: 24.4 corporation founder and 26.6, owner of a football team
Two artists and a beautician: 16.4 artist with multiple skills; 28.9 cartoon artist; 15.9 beautician
Two actors: 22.1 and 27.1

Several professional occupations:
19.9 politician
20.8 attorney
23.0 physician
23.0 writer
25.5 author

Since there are so few developing patterns in Virgo, whose home is the 6th house ruled by variable Mercury, it may be a zodiac sign more conducive to ordinary jobs and occupations. These are poorly represented in AstroDatabank.

One chart in the Virgo stellium group is that of Britt Ekland, actress and one of Sweden's top sex symbols. Her biography gives a long list of her lovers. Ekland's chart illustrates the importance of the ascendant over even a stellium of planets. Ekland has the sometimes notorious sex tinged Aslesha mansion in Cancer rising with the Moon. She was also fluent in several languages which can be linked to the Mercury ruled Virgo stellium of planets. (Ascendant 24 Cnc 39; Moon 28 Cnc 14) Her Virgo stellium spans all three mansions in Virgo.

It's good to remember that the majority of these sidereal Virgo Suns fall in tropical Libra, the sign overlaying the stars of Virgo. Though there is a suggestion of Mercury in this section of the zodiac, only Britt Ekland suggests Venus. It will be interesting to see if Venus shows up in sidereal Libra Mansion/Sun degrees.

Hello Therese,

I dont know if you have come across this statistical research by Buz Overbeck. He examined 25 ayanamasa (including tropical) which were applied to the moon's position in the nakshatras, and compared using the Michel Gauquelin Archives which lists nativities according to occupation and personal characteristics. Ultimately, the results did not support one ayanamsa over any other.

http://home.windstream.net/overbeck/AyanStat.pdf

Mark

Mark wrote:Hello Therese,

I dont know if you have come across this statistical research by Buz Overbeck. He examined 25 ayanamasa (including tropical) which were applied to the moon's position in the nakshatras, and compared using the Michel Gauquelin Archives which lists nativities according to occupation and personal characteristics. Ultimately, the results did not support one ayanamsa over any other.

Yes, I know about the Overbeck research. Buz was one of my early sidereal friends. He is testing principles that really have nothing to do with the lunar mansions as they are traditionally used. The Moon in the lunar mansions (called nakshatras) isn't related to profession and occupation, as we discover when reading the traditional effects of the mansions.

This is why I'm looking at the Sun and Ascendant together in mansions and signs. My opinion at present is that we really can't learn much about real astrology with statistical studies such as Buz Overvbeck has attempted. However, the Gauquelins did approach astrology in a way that has been helpful for astrologers in understanding psychological planetary traits. The Overbeck work does show how NOT to use the lunar mansions.

In my opinion both occupation and psychology are primarily related to the planets. What these little studies I'm doing on the Asc/Sun in mansions might show is that certain areas of the zodiac may manifest certain energies conducive to certain types of work or activities or certain types of problems. But basic psychology will always be in the planets.

It does seem in these small studies so far that there are suggestions of the effects of planetary exaltations and rulership in sidereal signs. I'll summarize these later with reference to traditional planetary associations.

I appreciate your reply, Mark. Although there have been many views of these sidereal research posts, there has been only one other reply, and that also referenced the Overbeck research.

Thanks,
Therese

Libra contains one full mansion,Swati, and two partial mansions, Chitra and Vishaka. There are several patterns that run through Libra, but none that seem confined to only one mansion. Thus, the patterns below are found throughout sidereal Libra which covers approximately 24 Libra to 24 Scorpio in the tropical zodiac (Lahiri or Krishnamurti ayanamsa).

As with all conversions between zodiacs, it's necessary to know the year of birth to get precise tropical calculations. For example in 1950 the central mansion of the sidereal zodiac, Chitra, began at 16.5 degrees of tropical Libra. By 1992 the initial point of Chitra had crossed to 17 Libra, the following degree.

Sign of the Sun's fall, Libra had no professional "power" occupations that appeared in Aries, its opposite sign. However, consistent with Venus, sidereal Libra has a number of icons noted for beauty and sex appeal.

Sun and Ascendant in Sidereal Libra Mansions
#14 Chitra: 0 to 6 deg 40 min Libra; Mars dasa lord (Spica and Arcturus)
#15 Svathi: 6 deg 40 min to 20 Libra; Rahu dasa lord (Virgin's feet; Crux, the Southern Cross)
#16 Vishaka: 20 to 30 Libra; Jupiter dasa lord (Constellation of Libra)

Solar Degrees in Ascendant Mansions:

Entertainment and Media (largest group)
01.6 actor
03.0 actor
05.3 actor
06.9 Johnny Carson, talk show icon
11.1 comedienne, actress
12,3 film producer
13.5 actress
17.2 TV justice presenter
20.1 actor in westerns
20.3 Jean Shrimpton, model icon
20.8 actor
29.1 Mirian B., model featured in Playboy
29.1 Karin B., model featured in Playboy
It's interesting that there are three models in this group as Venus is said to rule beauty.

Art and Music (Venus as domicile lord)
00.9 musician
05.4 singer, composer
09.3 singer. composer
12.3 artist
12.3 film producer
17.7 musician
18.4 noted photographer of gay males

Writing, Editing, Publishing, Teaching (Mercury as trigon lord; domicile lord of Gemini)
02.7 P.E. teacher
02.8 poet, composer
08.1 dental tech instructor
16.4 political journalist
17.2 playwright
25.5 novelist
25.7 astrological writer
25.9 writer
28.2 prolific writer

Astrologers
00.5
11.0
13.6
22.4
23.3
25.7 (also writer)

Miscellaneous (all in Swati)
07.6 school sex scandal
10.9 Robert Chaney, founder of Astara (New Age, spiritual growth)
16.4 metaphysical scientist

Libra stelliums (Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars) generally supported the Sun-Mansion ascendant picture. Entertainment (music included) was highest with all but two of the Sun's degrees in Jupiter ruled Vishaka (20 to 30 Libra, location of the Libra constellation):

Solar Degrees in Stelliums:

Entertainment, Media
16.9 actor
19.3 singer
20.3 model icon
22.5 singer
22.9 actress
25.2 Leonardo DiCaprio, a Venusian icon (Titanic)
(25 Libra contains 5 stars including beta Libra)
28.8 actress
29.6 musician, conductor

A group of astrologers, all but one in Vishaka
15.9 astrologer
21.7 Arthur Blackwell
22.6 astrologer (also a cabinet maker)
23.0 Marc Penfield
24.0 astrologer, psychotherapist

Three in the spiritual area to add to Robert Chaney and a metaphysical scientist (Saturn) for Ascendant/Sun positions
20.5 spiritual teacher
24.9 American psychic
26.6 American parson

For Libra stelliums, there is a collection of victims and misfortune
04.7 accidents, broken bones, kidney trouble
17.7 homicide victim by husband
18.2 infant mortality
18.7 suicide
24.9 suicide
29.7 family psychological distress

Sometimes a chart becomes a prototype for a zodiac sign. Leonardo Speranzoli (Nov 13, 1982, 6:45 a.m., Monte Castrilli, Italy) might be a poster child for an overemphasized Libra. Called an "Italian romantic," at the age of 17 he began a highly publicized affair with a married woman with three children. The ascendant/Sun complex includes Mercury and ascendant at 23 Libra, Sun and Jupiter at 27 Libra, and Venus at 29 Libra.

All these planets, of course, fall in tropical Scorpio, often said to relate to sex. But how many have thought this through in line with traditional symbolism which states that sex and relationships come under Venus whose domicile is Libra rather than Scorpio? In Finding the Person in the Horoscope (1973) the late Zipporah Dobyns (in reference to Scorpio as a water sign) actually says that "Tropical Scorpio is naturally driven by the need for fusion with another to satisfy strong dependency needs."(p. 31) Does this sound like war mongering Mars or even Pluto? Dobyn's statement emphasizes the relationship seeking nature of Venus.

Another sidereal Libra poster child is Daniel Barenboim whose life expressed both the artistic and relationship sides of Libra. Barenboim's Libra stellium is in the 10th house. (Sun 29 Libra, Venus 25, Mercury 30, Mars 12.5 degrees) Barenboim was an Argentinean-Israli musician, a pianist and conductor. He married world-class cellist Jacqueline duPre, and together the formed a "magic couple," giving the music world glamor and passion.

However, a later-in-life biographical movie revealed that during a a period of separation, Barenboim had an affair with Jackie's sister. When his wife became ill when they were older, he set up a separate home with another woman and fathered two children, but continued to care for his wife. Thus, a life filled with Venus symbolism. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Barenboim,_Daniel

There is also the metaphysical and moral side of Libra. Robert Chaney's life perhaps best illustrates this side of Libra. Chaney had his ascendant and Sun in Swati (rather than Vishaka as Speranzoli and Barenboim). This is the mansion of the Southern Cross said to be the domain of Saraswati., goddess of learning.

Chaney founded Astara with his wife Earlyne (another Libra partnership!). Astara's teachings center on healing, holistic health practices and opening one's mind to new ideas. Astara's philosophy centers on positive thinking, meditation and a sense that humans have vast, often untapped, mental powers. (Saturn and Mercury as domicile lords of Libra) http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chaney,_Robert

Of the three mansions in Libra, Vishaka, the third mansion (20 to 30 degrees) is definitely the heavy weight with multiple Sun positions for occupations. This mansion contains most of the stars of Libra, the scales. Libra's other two mansions are mainly in the very long constellation of Virgo with Crux far to the south in the central mansion of Swati.

Mansions in Sidereal Scorpio

For sidereal Scorpio in theory we'd expect to see the influence of Mars, Scorpio's domicile lord. We may also expect to see some kind of Venus symbolism as the day triplicity lord of the Cancer trigon. As with the other three trigons, there can be some exchange in planetary symbolism from the other two signs of the trigon, Cancer and Pisces. Each triplicity seems to form a triangular energy structure within itself, and the planets involved in all three signs will tend to filter through in various ways in each sign.

As I've reached the eighth sign of the zodiac, I'm beginning to form the idea of relating activities to the various influencing planets in a more methodical way. The Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces trigon is the most active of all the trigons due to the multiple planets involved.

For example, returning to Cancer, the first sign of Scorpio's trigon, we see the influence of exalted Jupiter in a cluster of businessmen and executives, which reflects the material wealth and expansion sides of Jupiter. We also have a cluster of politicians, another Jupiter occupation. We find both these groups in sidereal Scorpio, the second sign of the Cancer trigon. So for sidereal Scorpio we have:

Mars, domicile and trigon lord
Venus, trigon lord and exalted planet in Pisces
Moon, domicile lord of Cancer
Jupiter, exalted planet in Cancer and domicile lord of Pisces

Added to these planets is the possible influence of the vimshottari dasa lords in their individual mansions:
Mansion #16 Vishaka (final quarter): 0 to 3 deg 20 min Scorpio; Jupiter dasa lord (stars of Libra)
Mansion #17 Anuradha: 3 deg 20 min to 16 deg 40 min Scorpio; Saturn dasa lord (Antares, Scorpion's heart)
Mansion #18 Jyeshta: 16 deg 40 min to 30 Scorpio; Mercury dasa lord (Scorpion's body and Ophiuchus, the Serpent Holder)

In the small final quarter of Vishaka (0 to 3 deg 20 min Scorpio) are two noted persons: William G. Bennett, CEO of KMart and a hotel owner and Gordon Lightfoot, platinum and gold recording artist. This segment of sidereal Scorpio is the navamsa of Cancer. Navamsa signs often reflect the symbolism of the zodiacal sign of the same name. Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, and this segment of Scorpio reflects Jupiter symbolism, in this case wealth and popularity. As a musician Gordon Lightfoot carries the Venus symbolism as well (as day triplicity lord and Pisces' exaltation planet).

Taking the Sun in ascendant mansions only, only two occupational clusters align with individual mansions. (Additional occupations are found throughout sidereal Scorpio.)

Ascendant/Sun in Anuradha (3 deg 20 min to 16 deg 40 min sidereal Scorpio)
Sun Degrees:

Sports Professionals (Mars as sign and triplicity lord)
04.2 golf
06.0 tennis
10.4 baseball
12.3 Bruce Lee, cinema, martial arts
12.3 cyclist

Ascendant/Sun in Jyeshta (16 deg 40 min to 30 sidereal Scorpio)
Sun Degrees:

Entertainers (Jupiter as lord of Pisces and exaltation planet of Cancer)
20.3 actress
24.1 actor
27.3 comedienne
28.6 comedienne, impressionist
29.4 actor
29.8 soaps actress

Occupations found throughout sidereal Scorpio (Sun in ascendant mansion)

Politicians (Jupiter as lord of Pisces and exaltation planet in Cancer)
(Tropical astrologers would see these politicians as belonging to Sagittarius.)
04.6 Vice president Joseph Biden
07.7 American politician, labor secretary
10.0 member of Parliament
14.8 Livio Paladin, jurist, attained high posts
20.1 member of Parliament
27.4 South African prime minister
28.5 member of Parliament

CEOs, Directors, Corporate Presidents (Jupiter as lord of Pisces and exalted planet in Cancer; Mars as personal drive.)
01.2 CEO
07.9 business owner, manager
16.4 Gianni Versace, fashion empire
17.9 bank manager
23.1 insurance supervisor
28.0 business owner

Artists and Musicians (Venus exalted in Pisces)
01.6 singer, songwriter
02.8 singer, composer
10.2 artist
18.4 architect, designer
24.0 sculptor
25.9 music (heavy metal) (Mars)
27.2 Connie Francis, U.S. top recording star
29.4 musician

A small criminal group:
00.7 drug dealer
15.6 thief
17.8 forger

Looking further for clues to Sidereal Scorpio in stelliums (Sun, Venus, Mars, Mercury)
Solar degrees in stelliums:

Sports and Mars related
00.3 feminist, activist
00.6 American explorer
01.7 hockey, police woman
02.1 soccer
15.9 high jump
18.9 army officer; also owned restaurant
21.9 Harry Chapin, activist through concerts
23.7 sports writer (Mars, Mercury's mansion)
25.0 plane explosion

Astrologers
01.5 astrologer
01.6 astrologer
15.1 student astrologer
20.2 Robert Hand
22.9 astrologer
23.2 astrological programmer
(There were also two Sun/ascendant astrologers: 20.0 and 23.9; As in Aslesha in Cancer, the final mansion of Scorpio belongs to Mercury. It my be also that the Venus symbolism has a relationship to counseling since the majority of astrologers are consulting astrologers.)

Crime and Misfortune
00.2 suicide
01.4 homicide
03.9 infant mortality
04.0 suicide
17.7 sex abuse
22.4 daughter murdered
27.6 SIDS

Sidereal Scorpio is actually a very diverse sign, and one of the most externalized and active signs in the entire zodiac. For example, the symbolism of Mars extends far beyond athletic prowess. Listed in Benjamin Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology (Abu Ma'shar's Great Introduction, p. 244) along with "youth and strength" we find "sharpness of mind...and a King of power and cleverness...the commands of leaders...the companion of the king..." [contemporary vice president, members of congress and parliament, etc.]

Gauquelin keywords for Mars include "decisive, determined, fighter, powerful, strong willed" (Your Personality and the Planets, Michel Gauquelin, 1980) The two women below with Scorpio stelliums reflect the potent energy and diversity of this sign:

Ginger Chalford: Venus, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Ketu, Ascendant in Scorpio; Ascendant lord Mars conjunct Mercury; Mars is in the degree of Antares. Her Scorpio stellium is in the 12th house, first sign.
"American psychologist, astrologer, writer, healer and PhD. She is a certified practitioner of NLP, Circles of Life Technology, MariEl, and Contact Reflex Analysis, as well as being the author of "The Inner Personality of the Chart" and "Pluto, Planet of Magic and Power."
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chalford,_Ginger

Barbara Smith: Sun, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Ketu in Scorpio; Barbara has sidereal Virgo rising with Mercury applying to the conjunction of Mars within one degree.
"American black feminist political thinker and activist, critic, teacher, lecturer, author, editor, and essayist. Barbara Smith was among the first scholars to define an African American women's literary tradition and to build black women's studies and black feminism in the United States. In particular she is known as the first writer to characterize lesbian relationships between black women in classic Negro novels."
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Smith,_Barbara

The planetary groupings for Barbara Smith and Ginger Chalford are distributed between Scorpio and Sagittarius in the tropical zodiac. These two women were born three days apart in 1946, so Sun and Venus in both charts are in the Cancer navamsa of Scorpio. (late tropical Scorpio)

An extremely active and outgoing sign, often with passion for a cause, the Venus, Jupiter and Moon (writers as per Gauquelin) signatures are just as apparent as Mars in sidereal Scorpio. There is no similarity between sidereal Scorpio and the generally internalized tropical Scorpio. Sidereal Scorpio occupational choices are those that involve many other people in various ways, and there often seems to be a sense of mission to enlighten and assist humanity. At present I consider the Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces sidereal trigon to have a predominantly choleric nature which would align with its Mars triplicity rulership.

Hi Therese,

Here's 4 more tropical Sun in Libra successful Australian politicians you can add to the research, with sidereal Virgo Sun

1. Julia Gillard - former first Australian female Prime Minister: 29 Sept 1961
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Gillard

2. Bob Carr - He was the longest continuing serving Premier of New South Wales (Australia's most populated state): 28 Sept 1947
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carr#P ... .932005.29

3. Neville Wran - Another successful Premier of New South Wales for 20 years: 11 Oct 1926
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Wran

4. Billy Hughes - Longest serving member of the Australian Parliament and 8 years as Prime Minister: 25 Sept 1862
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Hughes

I'll so some more research on the other Sun signs..

Thank you, Rod, but we need the ascendant along with Sun signs, because the ascendant is the focal point for the entire chart: the ascendant along with the ascendant lord. In order to get any kind of research result with Sun signs alone, we need large numbers of people. Even then there may not be much of a noticeable result because planetary aspects will modify any traits that might be quietly lurking in the Sun sign.

The names you gave would be better included in an overall study of the charts of politicians. But, like I said, the charts need to have timed ascendants.

Years ago when Dr. Suitbert Ertel asked astrologers to distinguish between the charts of painters and politicians, astrologers performed no better than chance. So we have a lot to learn!

Therese Hamilton wrote:Thank you, Rod, but we need the ascendant along with Sun signs, because the ascendant is the focal point for the entire chart: the ascendant along with the ascendant lord. In order to get any kind of research result with Sun signs alone, we need large numbers of people. Even then there may not be much of a noticeable result because planetary aspects will modify any traits that might be quietly lurking in the Sun sign.

The names you gave would be better included in an overall study of the charts of politicians. But, like I said, the charts need to have timed ascendants.

Years ago when Dr. Suitbert Ertel asked astrologers to distinguish between the charts of painters and politicians, astrologers performed no better than chance. So we have a lot to learn!

Yes, I'm aware that you need the ascendant, but its difficult to do with anyone's natal chart if we place so much importance on the exact degree of rising, simply because we have to rely on the info the (presuming its a hospital birth) medical staff enter into the birth certificate. How do we know for sure that the birth time stipulated on the certificate is actually the real time of birth and not just rounded up to the nearest say for example 15 minute block or something similar?

If anything, what I've done in my above post is pointed out the fallacy of tropical zodiac sun signs versus sidereal zodiac sun signs and the resultant career achievements. Would anyone knowledgeable about tropical zodiac sun sign traits guessed that some of Australia's most successful politicians had a Virgo sun sign in sidereal zodiac? highly unlikely I would say!
Virgo sun sign in tropical zodiac is not known for displaying strong leadership ability AND managing to keep the party loyalty against the publicly exposed dirt that gets thrown at them in the field of Political leadership.
Those examples I showed you above didn't just stay at the top of there game for one term of office, no, they went on to create milestones of achievement that are still unparalleled today.

As we all know on here, there is no discounting the significant importance of the Sun, even by itself in terms of overall career achievement irrespective of any other planetary aspects or influences. Another way of saying this could be along the lines of; without the sun, there is NO life force! without the sun, no planets and obviously no astrology! The sun is it, regardless of "diluting" factors. How on earth could you have it any other way? No planet or aspect is more important than the sun in career or even non-career achievement as the case may be. But I digress for now, this is another topic.

So I find it very difficult to think for one moment, that anyone can have not just a successful career but an outstanding successful career in one of the most difficult jobs or occupations in the world, such as one in Politics. Hence, my emphasis on the Sun sign, particularly in this field of endeavor.

This will always be a constant unknown in any astrological research of natal charts no matter where in the world any individual has a hospital aided birth. That's one of the reasons I frown on any analysis of natal chart interpretation regardless of which side of the tropical versus sidereal zodiac data collection systems that talk up the importance of the rising sign.

There are sidereal astrologers like Jim Eshelman who would disagree with you on the importance of the ascendant > http://www.solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=186, especially those who have Sagittarius there! a quick look at that forum will spell this out.

So what to do? Unless there is a way to know the intricacies, quirks, characteristics and differences in an individuals private and public life, we will never know and I think the same applies to a large degree in psychological schools of thought too with accuracy and thus reliability of data in statistical models of analysis.
Basically what I'm saying in other words, is that some people can be such brilliant liars bordering on suburb acting ability when asked about there private lives as part of the process of understanding the differences in human behavior temperament patterns of any given group, irrespective of weather we are talking clinical science or astrological field work, it just makes jumping to any concrete conclusions about any form of human behavior even more intriguing and difficult to ascertain.

One day I'm sure we will have the "proper" tools to alleviate this conundrum. Perhaps the usage of the internet could be a clue?

Rod, I thought for sure I ran off your chart, but I can't find it. I didn't see the birth data as such posted with your chart. Can you post your bith data here if you don't mind? Or PM me? Thanks.
Mostly from Good Friday through Easter I'm meditating or with family rather than concentrating on astrology.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Rod, I thought for sure I ran off your chart, but I can't find it. I didn't see the birth data as such posted with your chart. Can you post your bith data here if you don't mind? Or PM me? Thanks.
Mostly from Good Friday through Easter I'm meditating or with family rather than concentrating on astrology.

Hi Therese,

Its on this page, but Fagan's sidereal system > http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopi ... c&start=45

I'll pm you that data.

Yes, its all quite in my part of OZ for easter too.. plenty of time to clearly think without disruptions...lol..