Skyscript Astrology Forum

I think I have commented before on Skyscript that the astrologer Ernst Wilhelm has advocated using Indian astrological techniques utilising the tropical zodiac.

http://www.vedic-astrology.net/Articles ... Zodiac.pdf

http://www.vedic-astrology.net/index.asp

This idea seems to be catching on amongst a small group of western Jyotish astrologers.

Hence the new astrological forum Tropical Vedic Astrology has recently been launched by Ryan Kurczak.

http://www.vedic-astrology.net/index.asp

Is this a developing trend? Only time will tell I think.

Incidentally, I have heard it suggested there are a small number of Indian tropicalists. However, are these just western inspired astrologers based in India or are there people using standard Jyotish techniques within a tropical framework?

Mark

Mark wrote:Incidentally, I have heard it suggested there are a small number of Indian tropicalists. However, are these just western inspired astrologers based in India or are there people using standard Jyotish techniques within a tropical framework?

The ones I have come across in India all belong to the former category. The latter, as far as I know, is a wholly recent, German phenomenon.

Martin Gansten wrote:

The ones I have come across in India all belong to the former category. The latter, as far as I know, is a wholly recent, German phenomenon.

What German astrologers did you have in mind?

It seems to be Americans at the heart of the new Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum. The inspiration for the site is undoubtably Ernst Wilhelm although he is not an active member there. Judging by his You Tube videos Ernst Wilhelm is an American. The founder of the Vedic Astrology Forum Ryan Kurczak is based in North Carolina. Another prominent and well informed member is Dr Richard Farr based in Los Angelos, California. You may recall him as a former member of Skyscript (Dr Farr). He has a substantial background in hellenistic astrology too.

Just as a point of historical clarification it appears the Tropical Vedic Forum isn't as recent as I thought. It was first launched in January 2011 by Ryan Kurczak but has relaunched on another site.

Mark

Mark wrote:What German astrologers did you have in mind?

It seems to be Americans at the heart of the new Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum. The inspiration for the site is undoubtably Ernst Wilhelm although he is not an active member there. Judging by his You Tube videos Ernst Wilhelm is an American.

Oh, I see. My mistake. I did think of Ernst Wilhelm, and also of our own Dieter Koch. (And now, of course, someone will tell me that Dieter is Portuguese or Canadian...) In any case, a very recent phenomenon, so far as I am aware.

Hi Martin,

Dieter Koch does acknowledge in his article:

I myself am a follower of a Vedic doctrine, namely the Bhagavadg?t?, or the Ved?nta teachings of K???a.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm

However, from his criticisms of Jyotish practice and technique in his article I had formed the distinct impression he didn't actually practice this type of astrology. His comments and conclusions seem more indicative of someone committed to modern western tropical astrology.

Martin Gansten wrote:

And now, of course, someone will tell me that Dieter is Portuguese or Canadian..

No but he seems to be Swiss rather than German.

https://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephauth_e.htm

Martin Gansten wrote:

In any case, a very recent phenomenon, so far as I am aware.

Indeed. Probably too recent and insignificant at this stage to justify an entry in your article on western Vedic astrology! However, Ernst Wilhelm has already been teaching for several years and has accumulated a group of students who are learning and practising this approach. Wilhelm's technique involves the tropical rasi based zodiac and sidereal nakshatras. He seems to heavily focus on the BPHS and to a lesser extent the Jaimini sutras in natal analysis which he claims are more empirically successful in astrological delineation.

Mark

Mark wrote:Hi Martin,

Dieter Koch does acknowledge in his article:

I myself am a follower of a Vedic doctrine, namely the Bhagavadg?t?, or the Ved?nta teachings of K???a.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm

....
Mark

No wonder he is so lost ,Vedas are about praying to Gods to save the body, Upanishads ,about saving the soul, and Gita has nothing to do with astrology.

ISKCON is asking astrologers what to do ?

http://news.iskcon.org/vedic-astrologer ... 2012,3082/



PD

As the subject of Jyotish techniques in a tropical zodiac has come up on the sidereal forum, I am posting my question here.

On the sidereal forum Mark wrote:

...There are lots of examples of such practical discussions on Ryan's website: Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum:

http://tropical-vedic-astrology.net/forum/index.php

Please use this link as there is an older inactive version of the site that comes up on a simple google search.

Is there a written example somewhere of the analysis of a chart? I cannot watch videos for long as my computer suffers from old age. Perhaps you can give one or two specific links to Jyotish techniques used in the tropical zodiac? Clicking on a number of "articles" only brought up videos. One cannot block text and quote from a video.

I did start to watch one video on the site based on a chapter from Ryan's book, but it was very typical tropical astrology (Saturn and Rahu on a Cancer ascendant and Moon in Scorpio). Of course those interpretations wouldn't make sense in the sidereal zodiac where Scorpio traits belong to Libra and so forth. The general descriptions of tropical Scorpio traits have nothing to do with characteristics of Mars.

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:

As the subject of Jyotish techniques in a tropical zodiac has come up on the sidereal forum, I am posting my question here.

On the sidereal forum Mark wrote:

...There are lots of examples of such practical discussions on Ryan's website: Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum:

http://tropical-vedic-astrology.net/forum/index.php

Please use this link as there is an older inactive version of the site that comes up on a simple google search.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Is there a written example somewhere of the analysis of a chart? I cannot watch videos for long as my computer suffers from old age. Perhaps you can give one or two specific links to Jyotish techniques used in the tropical zodiac? Clicking on a number of "articles" only brought up videos. One cannot block text and quote from a video.

I don?t think there are any articles that offer examples of delineation.
I guess it a reflection of the modern world. Younger astrologers increasingly make use of things like You Tube and mp3 etc. It?s a shame you cant access the video links as these include delineation of a chart with the hora and vargas. In the links I have already provided on the sidereal forum you were given details of the Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum site where members discuss their charts. All you have to do is spend a few minutes browsing the discussions there. Invevitably many materials like the videos are aimed at pure beginners. More complex delineation is offered by mp3 and in Ryan?s new book coming out this month. However, there are some interesting delineations on the forum.

Here are the follow up suggestions I already made to you on the Sidereal Forum:

There are lots of examples of such practical discussions on Ryan's Forum : Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum:

http://tropical-vedic-astrology.net/forum/index.php

Please use this link as there is an older inactive version of the site that comes up on a simple google search.

Also I just watched a nice beginners video explaining the basics of temporary friendship/enemy by house.

http://ashevillevedicastrology.wordpress.com/articles/

Check out this video interpreting a basic rasi chart, navamsa and dasamsa of a lawyer as chart example.

http://ashevillevedicastrology.wordpres ... d-dasamsa/
He has writen several books. Including The Art and Science of Vedic Astrology: The Foundation Course, by Ryan Kurczak, and Richard Fish

The same authors have a sequel book out Sept 2013 entitled: The Art and Science of Vedic Astrology Vol. II: Intermediate Techniques and Applied Chart Assessment.

http://ashevillevedicastrology.wordpres ... homestudy/

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I did start to watch one video on the site based on a chapter from Ryan's book, but it was very typical tropical astrology (Saturn and Rahu on a Cancer ascendant and Moon in Scorpio). Of course those interpretations wouldn't make sense in the sidereal zodiac where Scorpio traits belong to Libra and so forth. The general descriptions of tropical Scorpio traits have nothing to do with characteristics of Mars.

I have to question your motives here. You made some unpleasant ad hominem comments about this astrologer on the sidereal forum yesterday and further stated he had ?seriously gone off the deep end?. I note the more personalised comments have now been removed which is good. Still, this gave me an insight into your stance.

While I accept you may be motivated in part by sincere curiousity here I also strongly suspect you are seeking this information (in part) to shoot down in flames anything Ryan Kurczak says or does on Jyotish. I didn?t open this thread to provide a platform to promote tropical vedic astrology. I was simply reporting its existence. I do not believe this thread or forum should be used as a staging post to attack it either.

It is my understanding (admittedly limited) that the techniques being taught conform to those in the BPHS and Jaimini Sutras. There is also reference to material by Varahamihira such as the Brihat Jataka. So the delineation is not different in technique to what any American sidereal Jyotishi would do. Indeed Ryan Kurczak was such an astrologer for several years before switching to the tropical zodiac.

If the astrological analysis being provided in not totally in tune with classical Jyotish this may reflect a more general tendency in modern ?American Vedic? which includes the majority working sidereally too. Martin Gansten has previously commented here before on the phenomena of ?California Vedic?.

I tend to disagree with your argument regarding the understanding of signs in tropical and sidereal astrology being fundamentally different. Of course one characteristic of traditional tropical and sidereal astrologers share is that the planets are seen as the key agents through sign placement, rulerships and other dignities. Generally, an exclusive focus on signs is more reminiscent of modernist astrology in the west. It might be more productive to explore this topic through a key Jyotish text like the Brihat Jataka of Varahamihira.

Beyond that I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to scrutinise the methods of Tropical Vedic astrology based on the work of one astrologer. You are welcome to do that privately, but I suspect you have a more partisan agenda here on the forum.

Mark

Sigh...I'm a scientist, Mark. If there is a concrete example using a chart with a valid birth time, I'd want to look at the same example in the sidereal zodiac. That's all. Most of the research I do is based on comparisons, even in the sidereal zodiac. (As for example, the physicist/race car driver example on the sidereal forum)

It's very easy to be somewhat imprecise using videos as teaching devices. I have already searched the discussion topics. There isn't much there to base a comparison on. I'll wait to see if Ryan posts something more helpful and concise at a later date.

Beyond that I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to scrutinise the methods of Tropical Vedic astrology based on the work of one astrologer.

I am aware of only two astrologers taking this approach, Ernst Wilhelm, and Ryan. And Ryan was one of Ernst's students. Are there other Internet sites devoted to Jyotish techniques in the tropical zodiac? Any published articles by others? Ernst Wilhelm has also defaulted to teaching videos. These take a lot more time to review, and the personality of the presenter is always to the fore.

Two hours of careful reading can present an entire system of astrology for scrutiny. Two hours of a video presents much less information. I happen to be a visual learner, and have trouble with audio. (One reason I haven't updated my computer.) Perhaps if you buy a copy of Ryan's second astrological book, you can pass on an example of a classical technique used for a horoscope in the book.

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Sigh...I'm a scientist, Mark. If there is a concrete example using a chart with a valid birth time, I'd want to look at the same example in the sidereal zodiac. That's all. Most of the research I do is based on comparisons, even in the sidereal zodiac. (As for example, the physicist/race car driver example on the sidereal forum)

It does seem that you and Ernst Wilhelm share the same mindset that the zodiac question can be empirically proven through maths, statistics and chart assessments. Its just you have reached conflicting views of what it is proving!

Ernst Wilhelm makes lots of claims for his astrology being more mathematically rigorous and therefore more 'scientific'. He clearly believes the tropical zodiac is more accurate than the sidereal one.

I am very sceptical about this whole outlook myself. I have heard it all before from astrologers like Noel Tyl. In my view astrologers simply select differing justifications that their personal astrological toolset is preferable whether its maths, statistics, history or religion.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

It's very easy to be somewhat imprecise using videos as teaching devices. I have already searched the discussion topics. There isn't much there to base a comparison on. I'll wait to see if Ryan posts something more helpful and concise at a later date.

As I said its a sign of the times. Forums are by nature rather random in terms of commentary. Plus the Tropical Vedic Astrology Forum is quite smalll in terms of active members at present.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I am aware of only two astrologers taking this approach, Ernst Wilhelm, and Ryan. And Ryan was one of Ernst's students. Are there other Internet sites devoted to Jyotish techniques in the tropical zodiac? Any published articles by others? Ernst Wilhelm has also defaulted to teaching videos. These take a lot more time to review, and the personality of the presenter is always to the fore.

I am sure Ernst Wilhelm has several other students and former practising tropical vedic astrology but they are probably not teachers. Ryan Kurczak is also offering courses now too. Overall though, this movement in historical terms is hardly out of the maternity ward!

If it catches on it will probably take at least 20 years to be a movement of some influence in the astrological community. There are some interesting issues ahead. How will the existing western Vedic Associations react? Will there be splits? Will this ultimately influence Indian astrologers? Or will it remain a small minority grouping in the American Vedic movement confined to Ernst wilhelm and his students? More questions than answers I am afraid.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Two hours of careful reading can present an entire system of astrology for scrutiny. Two hours of a video presents much less information. I happen to be a visual learner, and have trouble with audio. (One reason I haven't updated my computer.) Perhaps if you buy a copy of Ryan's second astrological book, you can pass on an example of a classical technique used for a horoscope in the book.

I am very like you in this regard. I much prefer my information in written form. And yes video, mp3 etc has a lot of padding out. With a book or article you can put over more complex ideas quickly. Plus the reader can go over and over the text to reflect upon them. One can also read them in the park, the bus/train or in the bath!

As for sharing examples from the book. mmm As a moderator and as someone with some involvement in this fledgling movement I dont want to be seen to be promoting this kind of astrology on Skyscript. I only opened this thread to report the existence of this kind of astrology and the new forum. There are also copyright issues.

All in all if you really want to research this kind of astrology properly you might find it worth your while holding your nose and buying this book.

On the whole though I would prefer to avoid such discussions on Skyscript. Certainly, on the Sidereal and Indian forums. I dont rule it out on the nativities forum.

In my experience nothing more quickly deteriorates the atmosphere on forums than discussions on the merits of the tropical zodiac versus sidereal zodiac.

Mark

Mark wrote: It does seem that you and Ernst Wilhelm share the same mind set that the zodiac question can be empirically proven through maths, statistics and chart assessments. Its just you have reached conflicting views of what it is proving!

My way of providing evidence for the sidereal zodiac is in the small examples and studies such as I am posting here on Skyscript. Except for the Gauquelin research, statistics can mainly provide a few hints here and there. I do some counting, but that is only counting and has no relationship to statistics. I believe we can show some support for the sidereal zodiac through examples (small groups, not single charts). However "proof" may be a very long way in the future.

Please don't misquote me, Mark. Ernst Wilhelm is an entirely different kind of person, and he has already switched from tropical to sidereal and back to tropical again. His excellent book, Core Yogas, is out of print, but offered as a download on his web site with a note that sidereal rasis are used in the book. Yogas are highly dependent on signs and house rulership. I wonder what the result would be if Ernst attemped to re-write the book using tropical signs?

I have yet to see even one of Ernst's mathematical studies. I looked in on a short video this evening. For almost 15 minutes he rambled on with vague statements about women's psychology, and the video turned out to be a come-on for courses and reports. There were roughly 30 seconds of astrology in the entire video. If this is the new approach to astrology by the younger generation, I'll stay with the older books and authors. I actually expect that Ernst may switch back to the sidereal zodiac when he is older, especially if he decides to re-write Core Yogas.

I am sure Ernst Wilhelm has several other students and former practising tropical vedic astrology but they are probably not teachers. Ryan Kurczak is also offering courses now too. Overall though, this movement in historical terms is hardly out of the maternity ward!

From what I've been able to find, there are apparently only two children, Ernst Wilhelm and Ryan Kurczak. A few students in incubation, no doubt. That seems to be all. For the time being this places tropical Vedic astrology in the personal idiosyncrasy department.

The Fagan sidereal movement was somewhat different because the sidereal zodiac had always been used in India. Fagan simply brought forward the historical evidence for the early sidereal zodiac in the west. And he was supported by quite a few early sidereal astrologers, most of whom wrote books and articles and attempted research. The Fagan school has always used hard core examples to promote the sidereal zodiac. Philosophers Fagan school astrologers are not.

As for sharing examples from the book. mmm As a moderator and as someone with some involvement in this fledgling movement I dont want to be seen to be promoting this kind of astrology on Skyscript. I only opened this thread to report the existence of this kind of astrology and the new forum. There are also copyright issues.

I believe it would be acceptable to excerpt an example or two for comparison.

On the whole though I would prefer to avoid such discussions on Skyscript. Certainly, on the Sidereal and Indian forums. I don't rule it out on the nativities forum.

This is really a topic for the sidereal or Indian forum. An astrologer has to have some experience with India's astrology to even be interested in this topic.

Something that bothers me is that (from what I can see on Amazon), Ryan titled his foundation book "The Art and Science of Vedic Astrology," but doesn't state on the cover that he's using the tropical zodiac. This can only cause great confusion in students. And I don't think it's an honest approach. How many might buy the book believing they are buying a book on traditional Jyotish in the sidereal zodiac?

In my experience nothing more quickly deteriorates the atmosphere on forums than discussions on the merits of the tropical zodiac versus sidereal zodiac.

If we cannot objectively compare a technique, then we'll never earn the respect of the wider educated public.

Therese

I think it's important for Mark and anyone else who might be interested in "tropical Vedic" to realize that there is a distinct lack of scholarship behind the suggested use of tropical signs with Jyotish principles. This lack of scholarship is obvious even in the introductory paragraphs of Ernst Wilhelm's "Mystery of the Zodiac:"

"The Greeks, Persians, Egyptians and the modern world of Europe along with its offspring in the Americas consider a Rasi to be a thirty degree arc of the ecliptic as measured from the Vernal Equinox (the position of the Sun as it crosses the equator on the first day of spring). This is known as the Tropical Zodiac."
http://www.vedic-astrology.net/Articles ... Zodiac.pdf

That paragraph alone displays a lack of knowledge on the development of the zodiac and its use by other cultures. Apparently "Mystery of the Zodiac" was written prior to the publication of Ben Dykes's translations, Raymond Mercier's studies and Alexander Jones' ground breaking research on the zodiac. These days it's necessary to study western translations as well as India's ancient classics in order to understand the historical development and use of the zodiac.

I'm currently reading Prof. P.S. Sastri's Text Book of Scientific Hindu Astrology (Ranjan, 2004). Sastri had degrees in multiple languages including Sanskrit. His advanced university degrees include studies in the Rigvida and Indian philosophy. In other words he's qualified to discuss that of which he speaks.

There is a chapter in Sastri's book titled "Some Problems." He cites several of the same zodiac passages (such as those in Surya Siddhanta) that Ernst Wilhelm discusses and clearly differentiates between the Indian religious and cultural use of the seasonal (tropical) zodiac and the sidereal zodiac used in astrology. Ernst Wilhelm has confused these two uses. The possibility that Ernst may still be leaning both ways is supported by the fact that his book (Core Yogas) available for download is strictly sidereal. The many example charts he uses for illustration can only be studied in the sidereal zodiac. Many of the same yogas don't exist in the tropical zodiac because they depend on sign and house rulership.

Of the zodiac in India, Sastri states that there has never been any support whatsoever for the astrological use of the tropical zodiac in India's texts. He goes into detail on the relationship between the constellations (his term for the lunar mansions or nakshatras) and planetary rulerships of rasis in the sidereal zodiac. For example, he relates the exaltations of planets to the background of stars rather than to signs as such and explains why these rulerships cannot work in the tropical zodiac. He does the same for the vimshottari planetary rulerships. (This is actually a separate discussion topic, but here I'm mentioning Sastri's view of rulerships.)

The bottom line is that there is still no public research by either Ernst Wilhelm or Ryan Kurczak that supports the topical use of India's astrological principles. For the time being "tropical Vedic astrology" is a concept built on shifting sands, a system whose foundation is a mystery. I have no personal vendetta in making that statement. It's simply an observation supported by evidence (or the lack of evidence) by proponents of a tropical Vedic system of astrology.

I believe it's important for interested persons to realize that there is no true scholarship behind the "tropical Vedic" position. I would be most happy to see any valid research that supports the use of the tropical zodiac applying techniques found only in India's traditional astrology. Without that research "out front" for everyone to study, all we have are unanswered questions.