Skyscript Astrology Forum

This post was originally a reply to an earlier thread, but I was asked to make it as a new topic, so here it is.

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The question about sidereal elements is a fascinating one. One way to study them might be to look at the Ascending elements. Which kind of people have a (sidereal) Fire, Earth, Air or Water sign ascending? Do the trigon lords show up? Does the sect show up?

I made a little study about the most frequent ascending element in different groups using the same 188 groups I used in the zodiac study here http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7695 . And the result is that for example the sidereal fire signs (Aries ? Leo ? Sagittarius) do in fact show quite a clear fiery quality. Here?s the list of the top-20 groups with Fire as the most frequent ascending element:

75 lottery winners (28, 18.4)
172 race drivers (54, 42.3)
86 restaurateurs (29, 21.1)
37 people with UFO experiences (14, 9.1)
34 NASA astronauts (13, 8.4)
1408 actors (Gauquelin) (375, 346)
72 people with unusual diets (24, 17.7)
404 wealthy people (113, 99.3)
1352 writers (Gauquelin) (357, 332.2)
150 adventurers & explorers (45, 36.9)
234 political activists (67, 57.5)
83 PR people (26, 20.4)
31 music teachers (11, 7.6)
324 highly educated people (90. 79.6)
229 engineers (65, 56.3)
400 journalists (109, 98.3)
104 military pilots (31, 25.6)
191 outdoor people (54, 46.9)
65 other healers (20, 16)
95 economists (28, 23.3)

The first number is the sample size, and in parenthesis is the observed result, then the expected value. I?ve highlighted the groups that show certain themes (my subjective evaluation).

With Fire there is speed and risk taking: race drivers, NASA astronauts, adventurers & explorers, political activists, military pilots, journalists. There is money and gains: lottery winners, wealthy people, PR people, economists (Jupiter the significator of wealth being the nocturnal ruler of Fire). And finally there is cooking, the traditional fire thing (Mars signifies cooking in the old Western texts): restaurateurs and people with unusual diets. I would have no problem to call this element ?choleric?: taking risks, exploring new things, run after profits and gains. And masculine quality shows up here too.

What about Earth? Here is the top-20 of the groups having Earth as the most frequent ascending element.

386 lesbians (117, 93.6)
146 people in sex business (48, 35.4)
145 sport coaches / managers (46.35.2)
157 sex symbols (49, 38.1)
27 meditators (11, 6.5)
597 top executives (165, 145)
399 actors (Jigsaw) (113, 96.7)
71 real estate agents (24, 17.2)
136 celibates (42, 33)
1582 actors (414, 384)
268 song writers (77, 65)
33 New Agers (12, 8 )
85 people spent their whole life in the same location (27, 20.6)
413 TV personalities (114, 100)
622 murderers (Gauquelin) 167, 150
112 lowly educated people (34, 27.2)
969 teachers (255, 235)
366 gorgeous looking people (101, 88.7)
829 textbook writers (219, 201)
77 baskeball players (24, 18.7)

I?ve again highlighted certain groups. Sex and sexual attraction would seem to be one theme, Venus and the Moon being the triplicity rulers of Earth: lesbians, sex business, sex symbols, celibates, gorgeous looking people. Then there is acting and entertainment business: actors (Jigsaw), actors (ADB) and TV personalities. Possibly also song writers could be added here. There is teaching and coaching and supervising: sport coaches / managers, top executives and teachers; and finally the real estate theme: real estate agents and people who spent their whole life in the same location (anchoring oneself to soil). There is feminine nurturing and earthy physical sensuality, also attraction, which apart from more erotic themes also plays a more subtle role in acting and showing up in television. Would we call this sanguine? Possibly so.

The Air. Here?s the list:

50 kidnappers (22, 12.6)
145 assaulters (50, 36.5)
1136 hallucinating psychosis (Gauquelin) 321, 285.7)
108 physicists (38, 27.2)
66 rugby players (25, 16.6)
84 farmers / ranchers (30, 21.1)
929 long lived people (263, 233.7)
93 athletes (32, 23.4)
138 child prodigies (45, 34.7)
1896 gay men (515, 476.9)
876 mentally deranged (Gauquelin) (246. 220.3)
58 Eastern spirituality (21, 14.6)
134 ambitious personalities (43, 33.7)
66 people with low I.Q.s (23, 16.6.)
132 opera singers (42, 33.2)
171 adopted people (53, 43)
662 expatriates (186, 166.5)
912 manic-depressives (Gauquelin) (252, 229.4)
91 beauty queens & kings (30, 22.9)
124 people with exceptional minds (39, 31.2)

This is a markedly colder list. On the top we find kidnappers and assaulters. In the Gauquelin collection there are six groups dealing with mental problems (1265 schizophrenics, 876 mentally deranged, 912 manic depressives, 1136 hallucinating psychosis cases, 332 acute delusions cases and 1793 alcoholics) and three of those groups (hallucinating psychosis, mentally deranged and manic depressives) are found on this top-20 list, and one more (alcoholics) is ?bubbling under? along with some mentally problematic groups from AstroDatabank (713 substance abusers, 54 schizophrenics and 159 psychotic people) that don?t show a big enough effect to get to the top-20 list.

Of course there are more positive groups too: physicists, child prodigies and people with exceptional minds signifying exceptional intelligence; and rugby players, athletes, farmers / ranchers and long lived people signifying physical endurance and perseverance (a Saturnine trait) ? why not include expatriates here too, signifying the ability to endure non-familiar conditions? And when we talk about expatriates, it?s not too far-reaching to include also adopted people here. And finally there is ambition: ambitious personalities, opera singers and beauty queens & kings.

Regardless of the opera singers and beauty queens, I would define this classical melancholy.

We have Water left. Here?s the top-20 list:

33 theosophists (16, 8.6)
130 combats (47, 33.8 )
38 arthritis cases (17, 9.9)
101 critics (36, 26.3)
134 commercial artists (46, 34.9)
134 alternative healers (46,34.9)
100 humor writers (35, 26)
52 drug dealers (20, 13.5)
201 people moved a lot (65, 52.3)
1472 painters (Gauquelin) (417, 383.1)
302 physicians (93, 78.6)
1265 schizophrenics (Gauquelin), 357, 329.3)
68 executed people (24, 17.7)
1002 politicians (Gauquelin) (284, 260.8 )
83 people with a humanistic world view (28, 21.6)
47 born again Christians (17, 12.2)
153 magazine / newsletter writers (48, 39.8 )
86 private pilots (28, 22.4)
198 social activists (60, 51.5)
674 journalists (Gauquelin) (191, 175.4)

Certain violent themes are visible here: combats, critics, drug dealers and executed people. That is not a surprise, when Mars is the night trigon lord of Water in the Dorothean scheme, and in William Lilly?s scheme it rules Water both in diurnal and nocturnal charts. Then there are some spiritual groups: theosophists, alternative healers and born again Christians. Also healing shows up in alternative healers and physicians. One general theme might be wishing to make the world a better place, also politics (of the planets, the Moon would seem to have to do with politics as well as of the houses, the 4th and the 12th), isms, causes and ideologies: combats, alternative healers, physicians, politicians (Gauquelin), people with a humanistic (secular) world view, born again Christians, magazine / newsletter writers, social activists and journalists (Gauquelin).

When Fire would seem to signify active conquering and new adventures, Water would seem to relate to defending and protecting things, world views, ideologies, ways of life that one sees preferable? though possibly being a phlegmatic element, Water does not lack passion.

So as a conclusion it could be stated that the elements work on the sidereal zodiac, and even the classical temperaments might be associated with the sidereal elements, with the possible exception of changing the places of the sanguine and melacholic temperament by associating sanguine with Earth and melancholy with Air. Indian astrology might give some support to this idea by defining Mercury as an Earthy and Saturn as an Airy planet.

What about the four Jungian types? I would associate Intuition with Fire, Sensation with Earth, Thinking with Air and Feeling with Water, just like Liz Greene did on the tropical zodiac. That would make the sidereal element theory a rival, not a complementary view to the corresponding tropical theory on the elements. In that case we should see sidereal elements and signs as an independent thing, not something that lies under the modern tropical interpretations.

In fact I suspect that Liz Greene created the theory about associating the four Jungian personality types with the four elements by observing the house triads, not the elements. She saw the houses 1-5-9 as intuitive (what they really are); the houses 2-6-10 as physical; the houses 3-7-11 as intellectual; and the houses 4-8-12 as emotional. Then she simply assumed that those same interpretations can be applied on the tropical signs too. Because of that kind of reasonings maybe we should maybe not give too much emphasis on the modern tropical sign interpretations. They may not be based so much on real observation, but more on theoretical models.

Papretis, I could fill a small book with questions and comments about your post here, but I'll content myself with describing a small study which relates to characteristics of the triplicities. I do think it's confusing to use the element terminology for the sidereal triplcities as even Ptolemy referred to the four qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry. However, to avoid the element terminology controversy (which is especially confusing when comparing the tropical and sidereal zodiacs), I'll use the terms trigons and triplicities in my reply.

It would be helpful to astrology if more astrologers were interested in research as you are, Papretis. However, I think it's important to build on past tradition and research work, and not go too far afield with personal opinions and subjective evaluations. Can we find support for traditional characteristics of planetary trigon lords? I decided to look at the charts of race car drivers and their supposed opposites in character, scientists.

In the past I had not given emphasis to the ascendant sign as such, but had looked to the ascendant lord and aspects to that planet. I was quite surprised at the results when I compared the sidereal ascendants (Krishnamurti) of physicists and race car drivers. There were 60 charts of race car divers, and 53 charts in the ADB physicists file. I added the first 7 names from the astronomers file so there were 60 charts in each group.

In no way can this be considered a scientific study. It's simply a quick observation of the ascendants in two groups of contrasting charts. This is a forum, so I'm keeping my reply more or less short and skeletal. Here are the ascendant totals:

Sidereal Aries trigon (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius):
physicists 18
racers 19

Sidereal Taurus trigon (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn):
physicists 11
racers 13

Sidereal Gemini trigon (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius):
physicists 22
racers 9

Sidereal Cancer trigon (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces):
physicists 9
racers 19

There is virtually no difference between the two groups in the Aries and Taurus trigons. The Aries trigon might be a surprise since it's traditionally "fiery." However based on planetary traits from Benjamin Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology (Book 5: Planetary Natures), and considering the trigon lords (Sun and Jupiter), the nature of this trigon is less traditionally "fiery" than reflecting characteristics necessary for success in any field. For comparison I have added a few traits from the Gauquelin lists (Michel Gauquelin, Your Personality and the Planets and Fran?oise Gauquelin, Psychology of the Planets.

Solar traits, ITA: strength, power, forcefulness, reason and intellect
Gauquelin: No traits for the Sun

Jupiter traits, ITA: firmness, patience, boldness, sharpness of mind
Gauquelin: self-confident, enterprising, winner, mastership, successful, brilliant

The Gemini and Cancer Trigons
The physicist group had more than twice the ascendants as the race car drivers in the Gemini trigon while the race car drivers had twice as many ascendants in the Cancer trigon.

The trigon lords of Gemini, Libra and Aquarius are Saturn and Mercury:
Saturn traits:
ITA: solitary, understanding, quantitive or measures of things; cleverness; prudence, multitide of thoughts; slow to anger
Gauquelin: attentive, careful, isolated, minutely detailed, solitary, thoughtful, reserved

Mercury traits:
ITA: sense and reason, wisdom, intellect, literature, philosophy, arithmetic and geometry
Gauquelin: no trait words

Saturn and Mercury traits, triplicity lords for the Gemini trigon (ecliptic area of tropical water), fully support the more genteel and intellectual scientific professions

The race car drivers had the highest number of ascendants in the Cancer trigon. I tend to agree with Lilly that Mars makes the most sense as the day and night trigon lord of the Cancer triplicity. My studies so far have convinced me that the sidereal Cancer triplicity (ecliptic area of tropical fire) is primarily choleric. Although Venus is exalted in Pisces, the Venus link can seem rather weak. We can remember, however, that Venus as a planet can become erratic and emotional in stressful situations, and if injury from others is perceived.

Mars traits:
ITA: choleric, abrupt, courageous, tendency to anger, lack of self control
Gauquelin: adventurous, aggressive, courageous, dynamic, fierce, impatient, perseveres, risk taker

These would seem to be characteristics we might find in race car drivers who can take their lives in their hands each time they get behind the wheel on the race track. Mars also is the planet associated with mechanical skill, and drivers are familiar with every fine mechanical detail of the cars they drive. These are not traits of scientists any more than being thoughtful, solitary, detailed and careful are common in the personalities of race car drivers.

Mental skill and concentration (the Aries trigon) is needed by both scientists and racers. A reader on a Q&A site where the question was asked about the personalities of race care drivers wrote: "...It takes an exceptional sense of balance to tell when a car is right on the edge of spinning out without actually crashing...put them on a motorcycle and they'll do wheelies, no sweat." A race car driver uses his entire body when driving (Mars) while scientists use mainly their minds, probably with a strong dose of intuition (Mercury and the Gemini trigon).

I've also found interesting aspect patterns in these two contrasting occupational groups, primarily in relation the ascendant and ascendant lord. But that is another post or perhaps a longer article.